DAL 88 Driver

Yeah. He's also tossing in only our line holders and leaving out our reserves. Skews it even more. Spin and manipulation... That's what DALPA does best!

Free Mason

Scheduling Reference Handbook Page 119:

• You Have to Tell Someone
  There are many instances in which a pilot must take a specific action and/or inform the Company in order to avail himself of the provisions of the PWA.
  Duty Time/Rest
  
  1. InformCrewTrackingifunwillingtoremainondutybeyondt hecontractualmaximum scheduled duty time plus two hours.
  2. Inform CrewTracking if arrival at the layover hotel is delayed and the scheduled pickup will not provide the contractually required eight hours behind the door or the FAR required eight uninterrupted hours of sleep opportunity.
  3. InformCrewTrackingifunwillingtodelayreportandreduc etimebetweenscheduled report and departure to achieve FAR-required rest.
  4. InformCrewSchedulingifunwillingtoacceptanIAwithles sthan11hoursbreak-in- duty at your base as a regular lineholder.
  5. WhencontactedforanIAwithlessthan10hours’notice,con sideravailabilityandrest status and advise Crew Scheduling if unable to accept the assignment. Under FAR Part 117, a pilot is required to have 10 hours of rest immediately prior to report time.
  6. InformCrewTrackingorCrewSchedulingifarequiredDOTdr ug/alcoholtestextends your duty period beyond 30 minutes after block in.

Read the bold part and the word in red. This is what ALPA put out. What's the concern again?

DAL 88 Driver

That's interesting. And is a good illustration of what I'm concerned about.

Why do they even reference "the contractually required 8 hours behind the door?" That is NEVER a factor. It's obsolete now. The FAR is more restrictive and requires GREATER THAN 8 hours behind the door. There would never be a situation where the reason for delaying pickup would be that you didn't get 8 hours behind the door. The reason to inform crew tracking would ALWAYS be that you did not get an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity, which means you didn't get enough time to walk into the room, get ready for bed, have the opportunity to sleep for 8 hours, and then enough time after waking up in the morning to get ready.

I know you think I'm being nit picky, but I think this is an important distinction to understand. From the reference you provided, and the other quotes I've seen from the scheduling committee chairman and one SLC Captain rep, it's clear that they are saying that under normal circumstances the FAR 117 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity is the same thing as our contractual "8 hours behind the door." In other words, UNLESS some other factor prevents you from having an 8 hour sleep opportunity, then 8 hours behind the door is sufficient. With reference to the 8 hour sleep opportunity, they are saying under normal circumstances that when you walk into the room the clock starts and it ends 8 hours later when you walk out of the room. In fact, that's almost verbatim what the scheduling committee chair said.

Exactly 8 hours behind the door is NEVER the answer. No human being can possibly have the opportunity for 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep with only 8 hours behind the door. That would be a clear violation of FAR 117.

What's your concern again?

shiznit

Ummmmm, because your premise is based on an "average SWA pilot".

Not your homie, BTW. There are a some "assumptions" on that SWA site that don't jive with reality at DAL.

Weird to see you putting full faith into the Company side of the negotiating table's website... Of course they are going to use negative assumptions on other carriers and the highest cost number for their own pilots. They are going around their union to try and negotiate in public! Duh, management 101. Being "The Manager" I figured you'd be enlightened enough to see that.

18 Days for DAL reserves? What? How about 14-17? 30/31 day month, high/low ALV, +/- 20% reserve, reduction for vacation?

Head to head is total pilot group to total pilot group. You are picking and choosing which categories to compare, gotta take the whole system; it's called a "network" for a reason.

Yes, clamp, average is weighted by the number of pilots per category.

Reserves require slightly more assumptions instead of hard data, and as soon as any variable is introduced I'll get unfairly accused of spin but here goes:
89 pay hours per month for line holders
15% reserve staffing
Avg. Reg guar. of 75:30
CQ adds 3:43
2 CQ cycles per year
vacation week adds 5:08
CA's 5 weeks avg
FO's 3.5 weeks avg

For 2014 using Aug 2014 22.D.3, 2014 payrates, and 15% DC:

12 yr Delta CA's average $261,942

12 yr Delta FO's average $180,884


I'm not going to adjust for FO longevity, that is too much excel jujitsu!

acl65pilot

I looked thru the official document from D-ALPA; The Scheduling Reference Handbook, and I see multiple areas where the FAR's are more restrictive but they still detail the PWA limitation as well. We have a PWA that was negotiated under FAR 121 and all its parts and now have FAR 117 and the same PWA. The SRH details the limitations and protections of the PWA but also the limits of the FAR. I would assume that this document will be updated if there is an LOA or if there are further clarifications from the FAA. We are in the early stages of FAR 117. How long did it take to get the Whitlow letter after 121 was implemented again?


As for this argument. I suspect that almost all are stating what their opinion is not what D-ALPA's position is given that the way the FAR 117 wording is written. It ultimately comes down to the pilot and his ability to rest, remain in the uninterrupted opportunity, and then if he/she has that rest interrupted, the onus is on the pilot to report to the certificate holder the interruption of rest, or the inability to sign the release, or operate the next FDP without an increased break in duty.

You said a few weeks ago when this dust up occurred that your reps had you back, so why are you still concerned about it? Be logical, be proactive and discuss changes with scheduling and you should never have an issue. Its always been that way here at DAL and when the PIC moves a report time, and its reasonable, no one says a thing. If there is an issue, call your Rep(s)

76drvr

Isn't that management's spin at SWA? Why would you want to make their case?

CVG767A

No, not putting words in your mouth--just an observation of your previous posts. (I'll admit, though, since I'm not on this board often, I haven't read all of your posts.)

Like you, I'm skeptical of what I read, be it from DAL, DALPA, DPA, SWA, or SWAPA. (For the record, I haven't received Air Line Pilot magazine for over ten years. I called them and took my name off the mailing list.)

My comparison to SWA isn't nearly as in-depth as yours: after talking to some SWA guys I know, its seems that they earn about what I earn, but work quite a bit harder for it. Good on 'em. They like their situation; I like mine.

My take-away from this thread is that nobody is getting screwed over by ALV +15 or any other facet of C2012. The only complaint is that we didn't get a big enough pay raise. I wanted a bigger pay raise, too. I think we're poised to make greater gains on the next contract.

Oh yeah-- my second observation: What are you guys doing on APC on a Friday night? I hope you're on a layover, and not choosing posting on an anonymous web board over hoisting a pint with friends!

Purple Drank

"8 hours behind the door" may still be valid if your next day is a DH-only duty period, since the "8 hours of uninterrupted sleep" would not be required.

I do agree with you that DALPA's communication on "uninterrupted rest" has been quite flaccid.

finis72

I think you have to look at total contract costs not just narrow body costs. Most DL pilots will have the opportunity to fly wide body jets at some point in their career, not so much at SW. OBTW, I agree that our narrow body pilots should be the highest paid in the industry, they do most of the heavy lifting.

TheManager

They likely generate the most revenue per pilot.

Fact that an 88/90 pilot makes what they do comparatively is a fail.