Originally Posted by shiznit

Wasn't a "give up anything". We do this thing every few years called "negotiate". It's a process where two parties sit down and work through portions of an agreement are inadequate to future plans and find mutually agreeable ways to amend an agreement.

The Company wanted to cut the plan for the other employee groups but couldn't cut our portion. Therefore we NEGOTIATED to add equivalent value (plus a little bit) elsewhere in the PWA. Other employee groups didn't get to do that, they straight up lost it. Since we have a collective bargaining agent and a contract, they had find another way to pay us the equivalent amount elsewhere.

I'd gladly negotiate ("give up" in your words) the other 10% below $2.5B PTIX for a 4.5% raise right now if it was offered.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

No. You're not right at all.

Again, if you're really interested in an honest discussion, I suggest you go back and reread my previous posts on this topic. You are clearly either missing or ignoring the basics of what I'm saying. I'm not going to waste my time with you (because I suspect you're intentionally doing this to be obstinate)... I've already clearly stated the issue and my concern with it. You keep restating something entirely different. Let me know when/if you're ready to discuss this honestly.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Again, if you're really interested in an honest discussion, I suggest you go back and reread my previous posts on this topic. You are clearly either missing or ignoring the basics of what I'm saying. I'm not going to waste my time with you (because I suspect you're intentionally doing this to be obstinate)... I've already clearly stated the issue and my concern with it. You keep restating something entirely different. Let me know when/if you're ready to discuss this honestly.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

You're either not comprehending the question or you're just trying to side step it. Again, this is what I asked:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Okay (and this question is for Johnso too)...

If a flight crew member determines for himself that exactly 8 hours behind the door is sufficient, is he legal?

Ask yourself the following two questions:

1 - Does FAR 117 require an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity?

2 - With exactly 8 hours behind the door (the 8 hour clock starts the moment you walk through the door into the room and it stops the moment you walk out of the door the next morning), does ANY human being have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep?

There is no decision to make in that scenario. It's cut and dried. The FAR requires an opportunity to get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Exactly 8 hours behind the door does not provide that... for ANYONE. The only decision to be made is how much MORE time (over 8 hours) is needed in order for you to have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep. THAT is what can vary from person to person.

For me personally, I know from experience that I need a minimum of 20 minutes (30 is better) from the time I walk into a hotel room until I'm ready to lay down and start trying to go to sleep. In the morning, I need a minimum of 30 minutes (I usually allow 45 minutes) to get up and get ready. So, for me the absolute minimum answer is going to be about 9 hours behind the door. Your mileage may vary. But it can't vary all the way down to 8 hours behind the door (or less)... because you would be in violation of FAR 117. Calling in fatigued is a whole separate issue.

If you don't get it by now, then you're just not going to (or you don't want to). Good luck.

Originally Posted by ExAF

Yeah...not my first rodeo. Our negotiations sucked (my opinion). I guess you're happy with zero cost negotiations...I'm not. That's why I voted no on the contract and I'm pretty sure you voted yes. But thanks for "splainin" it to me. Carry on.

Originally Posted by tsquare

OK, then I am just not gonna get it. Put in terms that a fifth grader can understand. You asked above if FAR 117 says you need 8 hours sleep opportunity. Then you go on to say that that 8 hours behind the door does not give you 8 hours of sleep opportunity. Got it, and I agree. Be a big boy and call skeds. I have no idea what you are looking for here.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Ever heard of a rhetorical question? Or a question asked to help someone else understand something? I wasn't asking any of those questions because I needed an answer. I asked them because I was trying to help guys like you and Johnso to understand the issue. "Big boys" don't need this much help. You're on your own now. Good luck.

Originally Posted by ExAF

Yeah...not my first rodeo. Our negotiations sucked (my opinion). I guess you're happy with zero cost negotiations...I'm not. That's why I voted no on the contract and I'm pretty sure you voted yes. But thanks for "splainin" it to me. Carry on.

Originally Posted by ExAF

Yeah...not my first rodeo. Our negotiations sucked (my opinion). I guess you're happy with zero cost negotiations...I'm not. That's why I voted no on the contract and I'm pretty sure you voted yes. But thanks for "splainin" it to me. Carry on.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I have no idea what you are looking for here.

Originally Posted by tsquare

Ahhh OK. So it was rhetorical. Fine. You got 2 opinions on it yet you kept asking the same question.

Originally Posted by tsquare

I still have no idea what it is that you want.