Originally Posted by GunshipGuy

Doesn't this assume the $506 in profit sharing was all for the pilot group? I don't see any mention of profit sharing allocation for other groups. If all Delta employees are getting their profit sharing from the $506 million pot then I don't see how the above numbers work. Not saying I'm correct on the $506 million pot being split among pilots and other groups, but I do know other employees are getting profit sharing, and I don't see any mention of any other amount of profit sharing than the $506. Thus, I would think our part of the $506 million would be $290 million.

If so then the difference between 2012 calculations and 2013 calculations would be $415M - $290M = $125M for the pilot group.


I don't have any allegiance to this view, so if I'm incorrect, please tell me why.

Originally Posted by slowplay

Profit Sharing is paid via the same formula to all employees. Prior to C2012 pilots were about 33% of the pool. Our portion is now about 36%, as C2012 raised our wages (direct pay rates, reserve and vacation increases) as a percentage of the pool. Your math is pretty far off. If you want to get the straight numbers e-mail your rep.

Originally Posted by GunshipGuy

Based on your 36%, I over estimated our total slice of the pie by $107.84M ($506M x .36 = $182.16M for pilots vs $290M). About an average of $15,750/pilot....seems more realistic.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

You're either not comprehending the question or you're just trying to side step it. Again, this is what I asked:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Okay (and this question is for Johnso too)...

If a flight crew member determines for himself that exactly 8 hours behind the door is sufficient, is he legal?

Ask yourself the following two questions:

1 - Does FAR 117 require an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity?

2 - With exactly 8 hours behind the door (the 8 hour clock starts the moment you walk through the door into the room and it stops the moment you walk out of the door the next morning), does ANY human being have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep?

There is no decision to make in that scenario. It's cut and dried. The FAR requires an opportunity to get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Exactly 8 hours behind the door does not provide that... for ANYONE. The only decision to be made is how much MORE time (over 8 hours) is needed in order for you to have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep. THAT is what can vary from person to person.

For me personally, I know from experience that I need a minimum of 20 minutes (30 is better) from the time I walk into a hotel room until I'm ready to lay down and start trying to go to sleep. In the morning, I need a minimum of 30 minutes (I usually allow 45 minutes) to get up and get ready. So, for me the absolute minimum answer is going to be about 9 hours behind the door. Your mileage may vary. But it can't vary all the way down to 8 hours behind the door (or less)... because you would be in violation of FAR 117. Calling in fatigued is a whole separate issue.

If you don't get it by now, then you're just not going to (or you don't want to). Good luck.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

You're either not comprehending the question or you're just trying to side step it. Again, this is what I asked:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Okay (and this question is for Johnso too)...

If a flight crew member determines for himself that exactly 8 hours behind the door is sufficient, is he legal?

Ask yourself the following two questions:

1 - Does FAR 117 require an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity?

2 - With exactly 8 hours behind the door (the 8 hour clock starts the moment you walk through the door into the room and it stops the moment you walk out of the door the next morning), does ANY human being have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep?

There is no decision to make in that scenario. It's cut and dried. The FAR requires an opportunity to get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Exactly 8 hours behind the door does not provide that... for ANYONE. The only decision to be made is how much MORE time (over 8 hours) is needed in order for you to have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep. THAT is what can vary from person to person.

For me personally, I know from experience that I need a minimum of 20 minutes (30 is better) from the time I walk into a hotel room until I'm ready to lay down and start trying to go to sleep. In the morning, I need a minimum of 30 minutes (I usually allow 45 minutes) to get up and get ready. So, for me the absolute minimum answer is going to be about 9 hours behind the door. Your mileage may vary. But it can't vary all the way down to 8 hours behind the door (or less)... because you would be in violation of FAR 117. Calling in fatigued is a whole separate issue.

If you don't get it by now, then you're just not going to (or you don't want to). Good luck.

Originally Posted by johnso29

I understand exactly what you're saying. And as I've said before, if you as an individual did not get an 8 hr uninterrupted sleep opportunity it is your responsibility to notify the company. The scenarios can vary from individual to individual. You must've not read my previous post. I stated some guys can fall asleep ASAP. Others, like me and you, need time to wind down. I personally like a shower before bed. I don't sleep well otherwise. If I have only 8 hours at the hotel, that's not enough time. Personally, I'd have no problem notifying the company. You shouldn't either.

Originally Posted by tsquare

You're picking fly specks out of the pepper.. Are you worried about doing what you need to do in order to meet the requirements? Whether or not you believe it, dALPA will fight for you should you ever be called on the carpet for this. You don't even have to pay for your own lawyer (although you won't get mr sehan... sorry) Or do you have another agenda?

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

See my above response to Johnso. If you still don't get it then I just can't help you.

My only agenda here is to make sure my representatives are on the same page before it becomes an issue at some point. Right now, they are clearly not. Depending on who you talk to in DALPA, 8 hours behind the door is either okay or it's not. They need to get their story straight because they've got pilots who rely on their interpretations. And how long do you think it will be before the company seizes the opportunity being provided by DALPA and adopts this interpretation, which works to the company's benefit in minimizing flight delays?

You may think I have an agenda to sling mud at DALPA. While I fully admit that I don't mind seeing them wallowing in the mud they've created, all I'm doing here is shining a light on it. I think it's important that we get our story straight on this before someone ends up with a violation. Don't you?

It has nothing to do with me being worried about having to defend this. The FAR is crystal clear and I intend to comply with it, whether DALPA or the company tries to talk me out of it or not. It sure would be nice though if I knew the people supposed to be representing me were on the same page.

Originally Posted by ExAF

You guys can argue the numbers all you want. I really don't care what % of profit sharing we gave up.....With the company's record profit/performance and the fact that they came to us early, I personally don't think we should have had to give up anything that we had already negotiated before in bankruptcy and the merger. Don't get me started on the QOL gives.