johnso29

Coming from you, this is dripping with irony. At least I'm man enough to admit my mistakes. DPA or TC have yet to do so. You may have.....once IIRC. I apologize for being fallible.

johnso29

Yup. My earlier post was incorrect, and I'd like to apologize to Vikz09 Sorry man.

The profit sharing reduction was 1/3 of 15%. I think we can agree that the number is variable based on the annual profit. But in a sense, you were correct. So once again, I'm sorry for arguing with you on that one.

DAL 88 Driver

You're either not comprehending the question or you're just trying to side step it. Again, this is what I asked:

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver
Okay (and this question is for Johnso too)...

If a flight crew member determines for himself that exactly 8 hours behind the door is sufficient, is he legal?

Ask yourself the following two questions:

1 - Does FAR 117 require an 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity?

2 - With exactly 8 hours behind the door (the 8 hour clock starts the moment you walk through the door into the room and it stops the moment you walk out of the door the next morning), does ANY human being have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep?

There is no decision to make in that scenario. It's cut and dried. The FAR requires an opportunity to get 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Exactly 8 hours behind the door does not provide that... for ANYONE. The only decision to be made is how much MORE time (over 8 hours) is needed in order for you to have the opportunity to get 8 hours of sleep. THAT is what can vary from person to person.

For me personally, I know from experience that I need a minimum of 20 minutes (30 is better) from the time I walk into a hotel room until I'm ready to lay down and start trying to go to sleep. In the morning, I need a minimum of 30 minutes (I usually allow 45 minutes) to get up and get ready. So, for me the absolute minimum answer is going to be about 9 hours behind the door. Your mileage may vary. But it can't vary all the way down to 8 hours behind the door (or less)... because you would be in violation of FAR 117. Calling in fatigued is a whole separate issue.

If you don't get it by now, then you're just not going to (or you don't want to). Good luck.

GunshipGuy

Doesn't this assume the $506 in profit sharing was all for the pilot group? I don't see any mention of profit sharing allocation for other groups. If all Delta employees are getting their profit sharing from the $506 million pot then I don't see how the above numbers work. Not saying I'm correct on the $506 million pot being split among pilots and other groups, but I do know other employees are getting profit sharing, and I don't see any mention of any other amount of profit sharing than the $506. Thus, I would think our part of the $506 million would be $290 million.

If so then the difference between 2012 calculations and 2013 calculations would be $415M - $290M = $125M for the pilot group.


I don't have any allegiance to this view, so if I'm incorrect, please tell me why.

Profit News Report

Back with edit:
The $290M makes more sense to me as well when you look at how 8.2% works computing your estimated profit check.

If you made $120,000 in eligible wages your profit sharing should be around $9840
$150,000 ~ $12,300
$180,000 ~ $14,760
$200,000 ~ $16,400
$250,000 ~ $20,500
$300,000 ~ $24,600

If the $506M is all for the pilots then the average for each one of approximately 11,550 pilots would be $32,651 each.

$290M works out to an average of $25,108, which I think is more realistic. (note, I said "more", but that still seems high based on the earnings x .082 I put above).

Thus, if the pilot portion of profit sharing is $290M vs $415M, that's a drop of 30%. Or, viewed another way, if we were under our old profit sharing formula the increase from what we got to what we would have gotten would have been 43%.

GunshipGuy

What's the motivation for the union not taking a stricter stance on this interpretation and leaving the pilots hanging on this? I would pay $1000 to the pilot who can show me how he or she can get 8 hrs sleep when they are unlocking their hotel door with 8hrs and 1 min before they have to be downstairs in the lobby the next day. In other words: It is impossible to be afforded the opportunity to have 8 hours of uninterrupted rest if you only have 8 hours "behind the door."*


*As a minimum a pilot who falls asleep standing up with his hand on his rollerboard once he closes the door and then wakes up 8 hours later to step back outside the door would need to budget about 89 seconds to get down to the lobby.:

80ktsClamp

I too would like to see something sourced on our profit sharing figure... no one has given a source, we've just backdoored the figure via reverse math.

GunshipGuy

From the link I had in my post:

The $506 million is under the 2013 column.

Alan Shore

Agreed. The FAA has stated, "A sleep opportunity generally commences once a flightcrew member is at a location where the flightcrew member can reasonably be expected to go to sleep and not have that sleep interrupted." While this does not require that the flightcrew member be provided "wind down" time to get to sleep, it does require that the 8-hour sleep opportunity not be interrupted, e.g., by a wake-up call or alarm.

I would therefore argue that the 8-hour sleep opportunity begins when the pilot enters his hotel room and ends when his alarm goes off. Pickup should then be scheduled an appropriate amount of time after that.

Vikz09

Are you serious? We all lost a third on the first 2.5 billion figure. A loss of a third is a 33% reduction on the first 2.5 billion figure. The only reason the hit looks less severe this year is the company made more money and therefore put more aside for profit sharing. I believe reroute corrected me that we actually split that with 2 other groups so rather than 125 million it's closer to 42 million. For me it was roughly 3000 grand. For others it was much more!

slowplay

Our profit sharing is based on PRE TAX INCOME, not GAAP profit.

Even though it's defined in the PWA Section 3 there are a lot of guys confused by it. It should be called a PTIX sharing plan and then the press releases wouldn't get guys using wrong entry numbers.

PG's math is correct. The max theoretical difference in pilot PTIX sharing paychecks between the 2012 and 2013 years due to the formula change is about $42 million.