Delta Pilots Association
12-09-2013, 05:43 PM
#8901
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 440
Carl,
This has always been a major fail at DAL. DAL pilots have always looked at only the pay rates. They were famous for never looking beyond the rate at duty rigs or work rules that put money in the pocket or made for better quality of life.
Its been a failing since well before my time. It's also a reason why I have consistently voted against contracts through the years. It's all about work rules for me. I want to work less and get paid more.
This is why, in my estimation, SWA does well. Their pay rate doesn't reflect their paycheck. Their W2 is larger because of this issue.
It would take real sea change for our focus to change. I really don't expect it in my lifetime. One can hope.
This has always been a major fail at DAL. DAL pilots have always looked at only the pay rates. They were famous for never looking beyond the rate at duty rigs or work rules that put money in the pocket or made for better quality of life.
Its been a failing since well before my time. It's also a reason why I have consistently voted against contracts through the years. It's all about work rules for me. I want to work less and get paid more.
This is why, in my estimation, SWA does well. Their pay rate doesn't reflect their paycheck. Their W2 is larger because of this issue.
It would take real sea change for our focus to change. I really don't expect it in my lifetime. One can hope.
12-09-2013, 10:03 PM
#8903
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 273
Tragic mess caused by Seham and McCormick at NWA. After they helped isolate the mechanics they set them up to get zero support from any other union. The McCormick Advisory Group and Seham are tag team wrestlers who work professionally raiding other unions and splitting them off. They raided and split off the NWA mechanics and Flight Attendants.
AMFA the PFAA and others all were suckered in to using these corporate raiding firms who then went onto dismember the unions and split them off from the heard to cull them.
AMFA was set up for the sole purpose of raiding other existing unions. The relationship with AMFA was with a management firm, McCormick Advisory Group, headquartered in Laconia, NH, and Seham which has a long history of representing management in the airline industry. The McCormick Group also founded the Professional Flight Attendants Association (PFAA), which successfully raided yet another an AFL-CIO union at Northwest Airlines.
If you look up the next newest independent union at American trying to topple the APA called the American Independent Cockpit Alliance (AICA) you will see that they are headquartered in - Laconia, NH and use Seham. They are "primarily made up of former TWA pilots" Sound familiar yet? They have been fighting the APA for 20 years and recently had Seham sue to get them out of agency shop during the 1113 proceedings. You can probably guess what their "goals" are and the same blueprint the DPA used because it's all a package provided by the union raiders.
The Seham firm has long represented airline managements in opposing workers and their unions. Martin Seham and/or Lee Seham have represented Varig Brazilian Airlines on a continuing basis; the Sperry Gyroscope Company against the Engineers Association; Pan American Airways against the Seafarers International Union of North America; Vantage Steamship Corporation against the National Maritime Union of America; Maritime Overseas Corporation against the Masters, Mates and Pilots and the International Longshoreman’s Association; and Jackson Engineering Company against the Marine and Shipbuilders Workers. And The Seham firm also has represented El Al Israeli Airlines, Air Lingus, SAS Scandinavian Airlines, TWA. Mt. Vernon Tanker Company, Seatrain Lines, Inc., Delta Steamship Lines, Zapata Bulk Transportation, Inc., Wabash Transport, the Maritime Association, Airfreight Express Limited, A. Millner Company and the Owners Committee on Electric Rates.
They helped get rid of both the mechanics union and the flight attendants union at NWA and guess what? There's only one union left that at the remnants of NWA now Delta which seems to be top heavy in NWA management right now. Think it can't happen here? Go over to the TOC and look around.
The DPA is nothing more than another Seham front for a well established union busting firm that has always left the "new independent union" helpless or worse against management.
AMFA the PFAA and others all were suckered in to using these corporate raiding firms who then went onto dismember the unions and split them off from the heard to cull them.
AMFA was set up for the sole purpose of raiding other existing unions. The relationship with AMFA was with a management firm, McCormick Advisory Group, headquartered in Laconia, NH, and Seham which has a long history of representing management in the airline industry. The McCormick Group also founded the Professional Flight Attendants Association (PFAA), which successfully raided yet another an AFL-CIO union at Northwest Airlines.
If you look up the next newest independent union at American trying to topple the APA called the American Independent Cockpit Alliance (AICA) you will see that they are headquartered in - Laconia, NH and use Seham. They are "primarily made up of former TWA pilots" Sound familiar yet? They have been fighting the APA for 20 years and recently had Seham sue to get them out of agency shop during the 1113 proceedings. You can probably guess what their "goals" are and the same blueprint the DPA used because it's all a package provided by the union raiders.
The Seham firm has long represented airline managements in opposing workers and their unions. Martin Seham and/or Lee Seham have represented Varig Brazilian Airlines on a continuing basis; the Sperry Gyroscope Company against the Engineers Association; Pan American Airways against the Seafarers International Union of North America; Vantage Steamship Corporation against the National Maritime Union of America; Maritime Overseas Corporation against the Masters, Mates and Pilots and the International Longshoreman’s Association; and Jackson Engineering Company against the Marine and Shipbuilders Workers. And The Seham firm also has represented El Al Israeli Airlines, Air Lingus, SAS Scandinavian Airlines, TWA. Mt. Vernon Tanker Company, Seatrain Lines, Inc., Delta Steamship Lines, Zapata Bulk Transportation, Inc., Wabash Transport, the Maritime Association, Airfreight Express Limited, A. Millner Company and the Owners Committee on Electric Rates.
They helped get rid of both the mechanics union and the flight attendants union at NWA and guess what? There's only one union left that at the remnants of NWA now Delta which seems to be top heavy in NWA management right now. Think it can't happen here? Go over to the TOC and look around.
The DPA is nothing more than another Seham front for a well established union busting firm that has always left the "new independent union" helpless or worse against management.
12-10-2013, 06:29 PM
#8904
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Tragic mess caused by Seham and McCormick at NWA. After they helped isolate the mechanics they set them up to get zero support from any other union. The McCormick Advisory Group and Seham are tag team wrestlers who work professionally raiding other unions and splitting them off. They raided and split off the NWA mechanics and Flight Attendants.
AMFA the PFAA and others all were suckered in to using these corporate raiding firms who then went onto dismember the unions and split them off from the heard to cull them.
AMFA was set up for the sole purpose of raiding other existing unions. The relationship with AMFA was with a management firm, McCormick Advisory Group, headquartered in Laconia, NH, and Seham which has a long history of representing management in the airline industry. The McCormick Group also founded the Professional Flight Attendants Association (PFAA), which successfully raided yet another an AFL-CIO union at Northwest Airlines.
If you look up the next newest independent union at American trying to topple the APA called the American Independent Cockpit Alliance (AICA) you will see that they are headquartered in - Laconia, NH and use Seham. They are "primarily made up of former TWA pilots" Sound familiar yet? They have been fighting the APA for 20 years and recently had Seham sue to get them out of agency shop during the 1113 proceedings. You can probably guess what their "goals" are and the same blueprint the DPA used because it's all a package provided by the union raiders.
The Seham firm has long represented airline managements in opposing workers and their unions. Martin Seham and/or Lee Seham have represented Varig Brazilian Airlines on a continuing basis; the Sperry Gyroscope Company against the Engineers Association; Pan American Airways against the Seafarers International Union of North America; Vantage Steamship Corporation against the National Maritime Union of America; Maritime Overseas Corporation against the Masters, Mates and Pilots and the International Longshoreman’s Association; and Jackson Engineering Company against the Marine and Shipbuilders Workers. And The Seham firm also has represented El Al Israeli Airlines, Air Lingus, SAS Scandinavian Airlines, TWA. Mt. Vernon Tanker Company, Seatrain Lines, Inc., Delta Steamship Lines, Zapata Bulk Transportation, Inc., Wabash Transport, the Maritime Association, Airfreight Express Limited, A. Millner Company and the Owners Committee on Electric Rates.
They helped get rid of both the mechanics union and the flight attendants union at NWA and guess what? There's only one union left that at the remnants of NWA now Delta which seems to be top heavy in NWA management right now. Think it can't happen here? Go over to the TOC and look around.
The DPA is nothing more than another Seham front for a well established union busting firm that has always left the "new independent union" helpless or worse against management.
AMFA the PFAA and others all were suckered in to using these corporate raiding firms who then went onto dismember the unions and split them off from the heard to cull them.
AMFA was set up for the sole purpose of raiding other existing unions. The relationship with AMFA was with a management firm, McCormick Advisory Group, headquartered in Laconia, NH, and Seham which has a long history of representing management in the airline industry. The McCormick Group also founded the Professional Flight Attendants Association (PFAA), which successfully raided yet another an AFL-CIO union at Northwest Airlines.
If you look up the next newest independent union at American trying to topple the APA called the American Independent Cockpit Alliance (AICA) you will see that they are headquartered in - Laconia, NH and use Seham. They are "primarily made up of former TWA pilots" Sound familiar yet? They have been fighting the APA for 20 years and recently had Seham sue to get them out of agency shop during the 1113 proceedings. You can probably guess what their "goals" are and the same blueprint the DPA used because it's all a package provided by the union raiders.
The Seham firm has long represented airline managements in opposing workers and their unions. Martin Seham and/or Lee Seham have represented Varig Brazilian Airlines on a continuing basis; the Sperry Gyroscope Company against the Engineers Association; Pan American Airways against the Seafarers International Union of North America; Vantage Steamship Corporation against the National Maritime Union of America; Maritime Overseas Corporation against the Masters, Mates and Pilots and the International Longshoreman’s Association; and Jackson Engineering Company against the Marine and Shipbuilders Workers. And The Seham firm also has represented El Al Israeli Airlines, Air Lingus, SAS Scandinavian Airlines, TWA. Mt. Vernon Tanker Company, Seatrain Lines, Inc., Delta Steamship Lines, Zapata Bulk Transportation, Inc., Wabash Transport, the Maritime Association, Airfreight Express Limited, A. Millner Company and the Owners Committee on Electric Rates.
They helped get rid of both the mechanics union and the flight attendants union at NWA and guess what? There's only one union left that at the remnants of NWA now Delta which seems to be top heavy in NWA management right now. Think it can't happen here? Go over to the TOC and look around.
The DPA is nothing more than another Seham front for a well established union busting firm that has always left the "new independent union" helpless or worse against management.
Carl
12-10-2013, 06:44 PM
#8905
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Now if you mean you don't desire to do the type of flying they do (i.e. domestic).... well, okay. But I'd take their W2's, working that average number of days, in a heartbeat. A Delta domestic pilot has to work a heck of a lot more days to get his W2 up anywhere near the W2 of an SWA pilot.
12-11-2013, 06:28 AM
#8906
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I haven't looked up everything he referenced, but what I have so far is absolutely true.
For example
For example
12-11-2013, 07:14 AM
#8907
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: maddoggy dog
Posts: 1,026
I haven't looked up everything he referenced, but what I have so far is absolutely true.
For example
For example
12-11-2013, 07:38 AM
#8909
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Road construction signholder
Posts: 2,440
This is a mischaracterization. They are very productive on the days they work (although I don't think they work longer duty days than we do). But they work fewer days on average than our domestic pilots and get paid a heck of a lot more.
Now if you mean you don't desire to do the type of flying they do (i.e. domestic).... well, okay. But I'd take their W2's, working that average number of days, in a heartbeat. A Delta domestic pilot has to work a heck of a lot more days to get his W2 up anywhere near the W2 of an SWA pilot.
Now if you mean you don't desire to do the type of flying they do (i.e. domestic).... well, okay. But I'd take their W2's, working that average number of days, in a heartbeat. A Delta domestic pilot has to work a heck of a lot more days to get his W2 up anywhere near the W2 of an SWA pilot.
12-11-2013, 08:30 AM
#8910
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You are correct. In fact we should emulate their pay and rig guarantees as much as we can. However, you must also acknowledge that they have long been able to work as much as they wanted, without much limitations towards concepts of max pickup, etc. At most other carriers, including DAL, there has always been the mindset of restricting guys' ability to fly more--without forcing it like CAL and the RJ carriers always have--so we can featherbed the seniority list. A SWA guy would state that the ability of guys currently on the property to fly what they want trumps some concept of hiring a dude currently in middle school at some point in the future.
That's why this thread still exists Bar.
Carl
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