Delta Pilots Association
11-30-2013, 01:11 PM
#8712
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
11-30-2013, 02:41 PM
#8713
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,309
12-01-2013, 05:35 PM
#8714
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
12-02-2013, 05:53 AM
#8715
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I actually like the thought, but I think that with this being an "anonymous" web board the logistics are too hard.
12-02-2013, 06:33 AM
#8717
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
We'll never see a vote. I see DPA as I see the flight attendants, who've realized that the threat of unionization gets them more than being unionized.
As they are now, DPA is able to steer DALPA to some degree, without having to do any of the grunt work.
They'll continue on this path until the money runs out.
As they are now, DPA is able to steer DALPA to some degree, without having to do any of the grunt work.
They'll continue on this path until the money runs out.
12-02-2013, 08:07 AM
#8718
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Yes, consensus of how to vote. The other reps were part of the cabal to destroy Roberts through personal attack, so they'd obviously already decided how to vote. What they needed to make clear to you was that you would be recalled if you didn't vote their way. You did that. The sad part is, I don't think you would have been recalled. The ATL voter intensity would have been very strong from people like me and the relatively junior people that elected you to promote change. If you hadn't caved in to the threats of recall, the failure of them attempting to recall you would have made you the most influential rep in ATL.
Like I said acl, you really blew it with that vote.
No doubt it would have been the best course of action for you if Roberts had resigned! Then you could have continued talking out of both sides of your mouth and make all ATL pilots think you held their position.
This is a very interesting statement on your part. I guess I could put together a bunch of my ATL based pals and hamstring you in every way possible in your rep duties. Including having guys write unfounded letters about how you left them high and dry during hearings against management, etc. you know, real cheap shot stuff. Then we could say: "Look acl, a recall vote would look to divisive...best course of action here is you just resigning." You're saying you'd go along with that? You wouldn't want your due process?
I know exactly why Nestor did not appear on that first letter. Pure politics. When Nestor did that, he made himself the swing vote. He knew that. He just didn't think his fellow ATL reps would then use that swing vote status against him by threatening his recall. Now it's quite publicly clear that the swing voter caved in to pressure.
Carl
Like I said acl, you really blew it with that vote.
No doubt it would have been the best course of action for you if Roberts had resigned! Then you could have continued talking out of both sides of your mouth and make all ATL pilots think you held their position.
This is a very interesting statement on your part. I guess I could put together a bunch of my ATL based pals and hamstring you in every way possible in your rep duties. Including having guys write unfounded letters about how you left them high and dry during hearings against management, etc. you know, real cheap shot stuff. Then we could say: "Look acl, a recall vote would look to divisive...best course of action here is you just resigning." You're saying you'd go along with that? You wouldn't want your due process?
I know exactly why Nestor did not appear on that first letter. Pure politics. When Nestor did that, he made himself the swing vote. He knew that. He just didn't think his fellow ATL reps would then use that swing vote status against him by threatening his recall. Now it's quite publicly clear that the swing voter caved in to pressure.
Carl
You make many incorrect assumptions, but its clear that you have your version, and then there is the actual version. Not going to belabor any of this any more. It is what it is.
As for the last paragrapth, wrong again.
12-02-2013, 08:17 AM
#8719
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Is that the best you can come up with? I haven’t looked up the pretax numbers for 2010-12, but I assume they are slightly lower. My response to you is this. So what?
I stated that DAL is “in its best financial position ever” and that the time is “NOW” for restoration. Slow, in an attempt to lower others’ collective expectations, said “DAL was in better financial shape 1996-2000 (98 being the best year), which, he said "set the stage for C2K." It had better operating and pretax margins and a much lower debt.” He then challenged me to “please discuss from facts.”
I then posted the FACTS, including the reason (fuel prices, interest expense, etc…) that our pretax margins were lower (albeit only slightly) for the 1996-2000 timeframe. TheManager insightfully added that, given the current “it can be argued they [Delta] are doing much better now [than 1996-2000].” In short, the two of us showed that slow’s thesis was wrong. DAL is doing phenomenal right now (and that was my point), but this won’t last. That is why it is critical that we get our piece of the pie NOW!
Here’s the real issue, acl. Your problem, and you’re no alone, is that you’re not a true advocate for either this pilot group OR the profession as a whole. What you’ve failed to come to grips with is that you are a PILOT, not MANAGEMENT. I don’t know what it is that makes some PILOTS feel this way. Do the ALPA trip drops, hotel reward points, positive space passes to meetings, ALPA expense reports, ALPA vacation bank, hospitality suite, lavish dinners with the MEC front table on the ALPA credit card create some overinflated view of yourself that makes you think you’re MANAGEMENT?
There’s not a question as to whether or not there are two sides to this debate (restoration). There clearly are. The problem is that we seem to constantly hear only management’s arguments from BOTH management AND DALPA.
Here’s a sample:
“DAL is making record profits”
DALPA apologist: “not so, they’re not doing nearly as well as before”
RA pay went up 42% this year
DALPA apologist: “he’s worth every penny of it”
Restoration now!
DALPA apologist: “C2K was unaffordable. DAL had no intention of honoring it. They merely agreed to C2K terms to facilitate filing BR.”
Inflation has significantly eroded our purchasing power
DALPA apologist: “we can’t restore our pay rates in one contract…it’s going to take at least 2” [without ANY explanation as to why]
DAL is spending $1B ($ taken out of the pilot’s contract) on worthless stockbuybacks and dividends.
DALPA apologist: “This is money well spent. It will assure us a spot on the S&P 500, as well as lower the corporations borrowing costs.”
Restoration now!
DALPA apologist: "It's going to take AT LEAST 2 negotiating cycles" [again without ANY explanation how this "conclusion" was reached.]
There are SO many different ways that you could be advocating FOR the pilots instead of AGAINST us. The way to be an effective advocate for your client—the pilots---is to emphasize the points that justify restoration and minimize the reasons why restoration is not achievable. What you are doing right now is exactly the opposite.
If you want to be management, that's fine. Go do it. Just don't masquerade as a pilot advocate when you're not.
I stated that DAL is “in its best financial position ever” and that the time is “NOW” for restoration. Slow, in an attempt to lower others’ collective expectations, said “DAL was in better financial shape 1996-2000 (98 being the best year), which, he said "set the stage for C2K." It had better operating and pretax margins and a much lower debt.” He then challenged me to “please discuss from facts.”
I then posted the FACTS, including the reason (fuel prices, interest expense, etc…) that our pretax margins were lower (albeit only slightly) for the 1996-2000 timeframe. TheManager insightfully added that, given the current “it can be argued they [Delta] are doing much better now [than 1996-2000].” In short, the two of us showed that slow’s thesis was wrong. DAL is doing phenomenal right now (and that was my point), but this won’t last. That is why it is critical that we get our piece of the pie NOW!
Here’s the real issue, acl. Your problem, and you’re no alone, is that you’re not a true advocate for either this pilot group OR the profession as a whole. What you’ve failed to come to grips with is that you are a PILOT, not MANAGEMENT. I don’t know what it is that makes some PILOTS feel this way. Do the ALPA trip drops, hotel reward points, positive space passes to meetings, ALPA expense reports, ALPA vacation bank, hospitality suite, lavish dinners with the MEC front table on the ALPA credit card create some overinflated view of yourself that makes you think you’re MANAGEMENT?
There’s not a question as to whether or not there are two sides to this debate (restoration). There clearly are. The problem is that we seem to constantly hear only management’s arguments from BOTH management AND DALPA.
Here’s a sample:
“DAL is making record profits”
DALPA apologist: “not so, they’re not doing nearly as well as before”
RA pay went up 42% this year
DALPA apologist: “he’s worth every penny of it”
Restoration now!
DALPA apologist: “C2K was unaffordable. DAL had no intention of honoring it. They merely agreed to C2K terms to facilitate filing BR.”
Inflation has significantly eroded our purchasing power
DALPA apologist: “we can’t restore our pay rates in one contract…it’s going to take at least 2” [without ANY explanation as to why]
DAL is spending $1B ($ taken out of the pilot’s contract) on worthless stockbuybacks and dividends.
DALPA apologist: “This is money well spent. It will assure us a spot on the S&P 500, as well as lower the corporations borrowing costs.”
Restoration now!
DALPA apologist: "It's going to take AT LEAST 2 negotiating cycles" [again without ANY explanation how this "conclusion" was reached.]
There are SO many different ways that you could be advocating FOR the pilots instead of AGAINST us. The way to be an effective advocate for your client—the pilots---is to emphasize the points that justify restoration and minimize the reasons why restoration is not achievable. What you are doing right now is exactly the opposite.
If you want to be management, that's fine. Go do it. Just don't masquerade as a pilot advocate when you're not.
What does the company prefer now that they are on the S&P? Have you strategically thought about their desires and next moves? What works best to add the value we all want? Is there an outside of the box way of doing business that does not go back to traditional bargaining but also does not be overly pragmatic while still being proactive with our corporation? It is important to realize that the move you may want to make may not be the move that is best for you to make.
12-02-2013, 08:21 AM
#8720
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
That action taken was an action that was not forced upon anyone, but done so out of what was deemed to be the best course of action for our pilot group going forward. That means this year leading up to C2015.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Lbell911
Regional
23
04-22-2012 11:33 AM
