Delta Pilots Association
11-30-2013, 07:47 AM
#8701
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
You'd better go back and do some fact checking, index.
Here's the PTIX Margins (adjusted to remove certain one time charges and special items which would make them lower) for 2008-2012:
2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
-2.80% -3.90% 4.60% 3.10% 4.30%
Here's the PTIX Margins for 1996-2000:
1996 1997 1998 1999 2000
8.90% 10.80% 12.00% 11.30% 8.00%
Your and themanaager's assertion that Delta is financially doing as well as the pre-C2K timeframe isn't based in fact.
Btw, interest expense is already figured in PTIX. And Delta lost more money in 2008 when fuel prices were $35/bbl than they did when fuel was $142/bbl. It's not fuel price alone that affects profitability, it's the price volatility AND the fuel price effect on the larger economy.
I'm hopeful that we are about to have a similar negotiating environment to C2K for C2015. Even a guy like Malone was able to extract value in that circumstance.
Oh, and if we're going to have a discussion based on facts, it would be better if you didn't ascribe false motives to others. Stick to what you "know."
Here's the PTIX Margins (adjusted to remove certain one time charges and special items which would make them lower) for 2008-2012:
2008 2009 2010 2011 2012
-2.80% -3.90% 4.60% 3.10% 4.30%
Here's the PTIX Margins for 1996-2000:
1996 1997 1998 1999 2000
8.90% 10.80% 12.00% 11.30% 8.00%
Your and themanaager's assertion that Delta is financially doing as well as the pre-C2K timeframe isn't based in fact.
Btw, interest expense is already figured in PTIX. And Delta lost more money in 2008 when fuel prices were $35/bbl than they did when fuel was $142/bbl. It's not fuel price alone that affects profitability, it's the price volatility AND the fuel price effect on the larger economy.
I'm hopeful that we are about to have a similar negotiating environment to C2K for C2015. Even a guy like Malone was able to extract value in that circumstance.
Oh, and if we're going to have a discussion based on facts, it would be better if you didn't ascribe false motives to others. Stick to what you "know."
Thanks Slowplay for supporting my argument.
It is correct that they were in better shape 1996 -2000, not by much though.
However, when you take the economy into context, it can be argued they are doing much better now.
Delta left BK protection in April of 2007. The Great Recession began with the housing bubble bursting at the same time of their exit. The bottom of the Great Recession was in 2009 and the recovery since has been weak with erratic job growth.
Several weeks ago, Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary stated that the U.S. is in a "secular stagnation" or a persistent state in which a depressed economy is the norm with episodes of full employment scarce.
Through the good stewardship of Richard Anderson, the unbundling of fees, and the massive pilot concessions in the form of significant work rule changes, pay nearly slashed in half, and voluntary terminations of our pensions, Delta has excelled.
Delta, during this difficult economic environment, has posted increasingly better numbers ever since their exit. Presently, their performance is nearing record levels again.
I am very leased that we are all employed at a financial stable company.
Tomorrow, Steve Dixon proclaimed in his communication to us, that they are expecting the single largest day in revenue earned in the history of Delta Air Lines.
HOWEVER, I refuse to be managements cash machine ever again. It is their job to manage fuel cost and to predict and respond to the volatility it has on the economy. My family is part of that larger economy that is effected by those prices as well. We as pilots should NEVER AGAIN allow givebacks in pay or work rules or except less compensation for our services in section six negotiations over issues of the business environment or economy.
It is YOUR job Slowplay to fight for the pilots as our representatives to management. Instead, our MEC has been actively managing our expectations down since 2007. We are tired of all the bull $h!t quibbling coming from you and ACL over the definition of restoration and why you can't negotiate for it, or, how many cycles it will take, or the quality of profitability of Delta.
How about this.
I don't care anymore about restoring our pay to C2K or 2004 levels.
Instead, since our pay is presently EVEN BELOW that of the notorious P O S 96 concessionary contract, how about we lower the bar for you all to make it EASIER for DALPA SINCE restoration to C2K is too hard for our MEC to deliver.
We should except nothing less in C15.
767-300 January 1, 2000 rate (POS96): $203.25
Adjusted to inflation in 2015: $284.82
767-300 January 1, 2015 rate (C2012): $226.21
That is a 21% pay CUT in buying power from POS96.
And before all the enablers and apologists chime in with the, "well, what are you going to do about it-burn down the house-pitch fork mentality" I will state this:
First, there is more DALPA could be doing. It goes against Moak and his disciples methodology of proactive and constructive engagement.
Get back to representing us and our interests such as being able to keep our families up with inflation.
Start looking at what is good business for us as pilots and acting on it. We can join hands with management and sing in harmony on the issues that effect us both such as IM/EX Bank & Customs pre clearance facilities.
But, instead of managing our expectations, MANAGE THEIRS!
11-30-2013, 07:50 AM
#8702
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Interesting that ACL campaigned on reform and change.
Those that voted for him are dissatisfied.
His real recall threat comes from the constituents now. Not the cabal that whacked KR.
11-30-2013, 07:51 AM
#8703
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
slowplay,
If you will recall in my original post, I was quite clear about posting Q3 numbers because that's all I had access to at the time. I asked you to post the full year numbers if you had them. You did. Thanks!
What you should know is I don't give a rip whether the PTIX was higher, lower, or the same when it comes to whether or not I feel I'm due to make the same pay I made a DECADE ago. Do you think management let these numbers affect their decision whether to expect/receive multiple $millions in compensation??? I think not. The point is the company is profitable NOW---but as I've said before, this won't last forever.
I also don't care what fuel cost---I care what MY costs are, and those are going higher and higher every year. It was not that long ago that DALPA kept an oil ticker on its home page. It was there for years! What was that for, slow? Was it a tool to assist pilots in trading oil? Or was it there as a constant reminder that we need to "stay humble"? The oil ticker may be gone but the (management) mentality is still there.
I get incensed when management gives away $1B---money taken out of the PILOT's pockets---and gives it away to the shareholders as dividends and worthless stock buybacks. You, however, make no mention of this.
When RA says "don't get greedy" and SD says to "stay humble" I wonder why my union is silent when RA takes a 42% raise in one year alone and he and other execs make multiple millions off of stock options.
You and DALPA could be highlighting the eroding effects of inflation on our purchasing power. But you don't.
And what does "even a guy like Malone" mean? Refresh my memory, was he the one who stated "we don't rock the boat at DAL"?
If you will recall in my original post, I was quite clear about posting Q3 numbers because that's all I had access to at the time. I asked you to post the full year numbers if you had them. You did. Thanks!
What you should know is I don't give a rip whether the PTIX was higher, lower, or the same when it comes to whether or not I feel I'm due to make the same pay I made a DECADE ago. Do you think management let these numbers affect their decision whether to expect/receive multiple $millions in compensation??? I think not. The point is the company is profitable NOW---but as I've said before, this won't last forever.
I also don't care what fuel cost---I care what MY costs are, and those are going higher and higher every year. It was not that long ago that DALPA kept an oil ticker on its home page. It was there for years! What was that for, slow? Was it a tool to assist pilots in trading oil? Or was it there as a constant reminder that we need to "stay humble"? The oil ticker may be gone but the (management) mentality is still there.
I get incensed when management gives away $1B---money taken out of the PILOT's pockets---and gives it away to the shareholders as dividends and worthless stock buybacks. You, however, make no mention of this.
When RA says "don't get greedy" and SD says to "stay humble" I wonder why my union is silent when RA takes a 42% raise in one year alone and he and other execs make multiple millions off of stock options.
You and DALPA could be highlighting the eroding effects of inflation on our purchasing power. But you don't.
And what does "even a guy like Malone" mean? Refresh my memory, was he the one who stated "we don't rock the boat at DAL"?
11-30-2013, 07:53 AM
#8704
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You could possibly overlook this behavior if this no-holds-barred goon behavior was used occasionally against management, but ALPA reserves this behavior only for its own members. For management, it's nothing but accommodating management's point of view. For TWA pilots and other actual ALPA members, watch your back.
Carl
11-30-2013, 07:56 AM
#8705
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Thanks Slowplay for supporting my argument.
It is correct that they were in better shape 1996 -2000, not by much though.
However, when you take the economy into context, it can be argued they are doing much better now.
Delta left BK protection in April of 2007. The Great Recession began with the housing bubble bursting at the same time of their exit. The bottom of the Great Recession was in 2009 and the recovery since has been weak with erratic job growth.
Several weeks ago, Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary stated that the U.S. is in a "secular stagnation" or a persistent state in which a depressed economy is the norm with episodes of full employment scarce.
Through the good stewardship of Richard Anderson, the unbundling of fees, and the massive pilot concessions in the form of significant work rule changes, pay nearly slashed in half, and voluntary terminations of our pensions, Delta has excelled.
Delta, during this difficult economic environment, has posted increasingly better numbers ever since their exit. Presently, their performance is nearing record levels again.
I am very leased that we are all employed at a financial stable company.
Tomorrow, Steve Dixon proclaimed in his communication to us, that they are expecting the single largest day in revenue earned in the history of Delta Air Lines.
HOWEVER, I refuse to be managements cash machine ever again. It is their job to manage fuel cost and to predict and respond to the volatility it has on the economy. My family is part of that larger economy that is effected by those prices as well. We as pilots should NEVER AGAIN allow givebacks in pay or work rules or except less compensation for our services in section six negotiations over issues of the business environment or economy.
It is YOUR job Slowplay to fight for the pilots as our representatives to management. Instead, our MEC has been actively managing our expectations down since 2007. We are tired of all the bull $h!t quibbling coming from you and ACL over the definition of restoration and why you can't negotiate for it, or, how many cycles it will take, or the quality of profitability of Delta.
How about this.
I don't care anymore about restoring our pay to C2K or 2004 levels.
Instead, since our pay is presently EVEN BELOW that of the notorious P O S 96 concessionary contract, how about we lower the bar for you all to make it EASIER for DALPA SINCE restoration to C2K is too hard for our MEC to deliver.
We should except nothing less in C15.
767-300 January 1, 2000 rate (POS96): $203.25
Adjusted to inflation in 2015: $284.82
767-300 January 1, 2015 rate (C2012): $226.21
That is a 21% pay CUT in buying power from POS96.
And before all the enablers and apologists chime in with the, "well, what are you going to do about it-burn down the house-pitch fork mentality" I will state this:
First, there is more DALPA could be doing. It goes against Moak and his disciples methodology of proactive and constructive engagement.
Get back to representing us and our interests such as being able to keep our families up with inflation.
Start looking at what is good business for us as pilots and acting on it. We can join hands with management and sing in harmony on the issues that effect us both such as IM/EX Bank & Customs pre clearance facilities.
But, instead of managing our expectations, MANAGE THEIRS!
It is correct that they were in better shape 1996 -2000, not by much though.
However, when you take the economy into context, it can be argued they are doing much better now.
Delta left BK protection in April of 2007. The Great Recession began with the housing bubble bursting at the same time of their exit. The bottom of the Great Recession was in 2009 and the recovery since has been weak with erratic job growth.
Several weeks ago, Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary stated that the U.S. is in a "secular stagnation" or a persistent state in which a depressed economy is the norm with episodes of full employment scarce.
Through the good stewardship of Richard Anderson, the unbundling of fees, and the massive pilot concessions in the form of significant work rule changes, pay nearly slashed in half, and voluntary terminations of our pensions, Delta has excelled.
Delta, during this difficult economic environment, has posted increasingly better numbers ever since their exit. Presently, their performance is nearing record levels again.
I am very leased that we are all employed at a financial stable company.
Tomorrow, Steve Dixon proclaimed in his communication to us, that they are expecting the single largest day in revenue earned in the history of Delta Air Lines.
HOWEVER, I refuse to be managements cash machine ever again. It is their job to manage fuel cost and to predict and respond to the volatility it has on the economy. My family is part of that larger economy that is effected by those prices as well. We as pilots should NEVER AGAIN allow givebacks in pay or work rules or except less compensation for our services in section six negotiations over issues of the business environment or economy.
It is YOUR job Slowplay to fight for the pilots as our representatives to management. Instead, our MEC has been actively managing our expectations down since 2007. We are tired of all the bull $h!t quibbling coming from you and ACL over the definition of restoration and why you can't negotiate for it, or, how many cycles it will take, or the quality of profitability of Delta.
How about this.
I don't care anymore about restoring our pay to C2K or 2004 levels.
Instead, since our pay is presently EVEN BELOW that of the notorious P O S 96 concessionary contract, how about we lower the bar for you all to make it EASIER for DALPA SINCE restoration to C2K is too hard for our MEC to deliver.
We should except nothing less in C15.
767-300 January 1, 2000 rate (POS96): $203.25
Adjusted to inflation in 2015: $284.82
767-300 January 1, 2015 rate (C2012): $226.21
That is a 21% pay CUT in buying power from POS96.
And before all the enablers and apologists chime in with the, "well, what are you going to do about it-burn down the house-pitch fork mentality" I will state this:
First, there is more DALPA could be doing. It goes against Moak and his disciples methodology of proactive and constructive engagement.
Get back to representing us and our interests such as being able to keep our families up with inflation.
Start looking at what is good business for us as pilots and acting on it. We can join hands with management and sing in harmony on the issues that effect us both such as IM/EX Bank & Customs pre clearance facilities.
But, instead of managing our expectations, MANAGE THEIRS!
You make me proud to be on an anonymous webboard with you.
11-30-2013, 07:58 AM
#8706
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
I'll just respond to this once a week FIIGMO.
The vote will be scheduled when we believe there's a statistically strong chance of winning. Not one day earlier.
Our MEC just voted to recall a chairman on a 10-9 vote. Still divided? Yup.
Carl
The vote will be scheduled when we believe there's a statistically strong chance of winning. Not one day earlier.
Our MEC just voted to recall a chairman on a 10-9 vote. Still divided? Yup.
Carl
11-30-2013, 08:02 AM
#8707
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
11-30-2013, 08:23 AM
#8708
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You DALPA insiders need to see how tenuous your favorability will always be with people like Moak and slowplay running the show.
Carl
11-30-2013, 10:23 AM
#8709
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
HOWEVER, I refuse to be managements cash machine ever again. It is their job to manage fuel cost and to predict and respond to the volatility it has on the economy. My family is part of that larger economy that is effected by those prices as well. We as pilots should NEVER AGAIN allow givebacks in pay or work rules or except less compensation for our services in section six negotiations over issues of the business environment or economy.
It is YOUR job Slowplay to fight for the pilots as our representatives to management. Instead, our MEC has been actively managing our expectations down since 2007. We are tired of all the bull $h!t quibbling coming from you and ACL over the definition of restoration and why you can't negotiate for it, or, how many cycles it will take, or the quality of profitability of Delta.
How about this.
I don't care anymore about restoring our pay to C2K or 2004 levels.
Instead, since our pay is presently EVEN BELOW that of the notorious P O S 96 concessionary contract, how about we lower the bar for you all to make it EASIER for DALPA SINCE restoration to C2K is too hard for our MEC to deliver.
We should except nothing less in C15.
767-300 January 1, 2000 rate (POS96): $203.25
Adjusted to inflation in 2015: $284.82
767-300 January 1, 2015 rate (C2012): $226.21
That is a 21% pay CUT in buying power from POS96.
It is YOUR job Slowplay to fight for the pilots as our representatives to management. Instead, our MEC has been actively managing our expectations down since 2007. We are tired of all the bull $h!t quibbling coming from you and ACL over the definition of restoration and why you can't negotiate for it, or, how many cycles it will take, or the quality of profitability of Delta.
How about this.
I don't care anymore about restoring our pay to C2K or 2004 levels.
Instead, since our pay is presently EVEN BELOW that of the notorious P O S 96 concessionary contract, how about we lower the bar for you all to make it EASIER for DALPA SINCE restoration to C2K is too hard for our MEC to deliver.
We should except nothing less in C15.
767-300 January 1, 2000 rate (POS96): $203.25
Adjusted to inflation in 2015: $284.82
767-300 January 1, 2015 rate (C2012): $226.21
That is a 21% pay CUT in buying power from POS96.
And nobody (to my knowledge) is asking for that back! That's our "contribution" to help Delta get through bankruptcy and back to profitability.
Given that, I think what you suggest is WAY MORE than reasonable and an extreme gesture of goodwill on our part. Too bad our "representation" doesn't see it that way and instead chooses to fight against the concept. It seems DALPA's been so busy focusing on "proactive engagement" that they forgot to represent the pilots!
11-30-2013, 11:47 AM
#8710
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Posts: 335
If that's true, then he showed political courage and did what he thought was right, not what he thought would be popular. I'm glad to see that.
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