NERD

The problem that I see is WE are Alpa and WE will be DPA or whatever a new union will be called. The same retread politicians will be running the show in now time. The same guys that seem to find a union job, instructor job, mgmt. job, any job other than flying the line. WE keep voting in scope give aways. WE keep voting in paycuts. WE keep voting in workrule concessions. I agree that alpa national and the upper echelons are out of touch fiscally. Look in the f'ing mirror ladies. There is OUR problem. WE are weakdicks when times are tough and blame Alpa for our cowardness. It is not Alpa, it is US. End of rant..

Carl Spackler

While it's true that it is ultimately our collective cowardice that has voted in scope sales, ALPA national does have a big role in it. Their use of extreme scare tactics against our reps and us does sway some pilots. Nobody wants to see their airline tank, and national knows it.

A new union that is not so terribly conflicted with trying to see the regionals grow will not use these kind of scare tactics. Yes we may vote in some of the same people, but national really carries huge sway on important issues. I love the idea of no national...only local. And only Delta Air Lines.

Carl

DeadHead

Delta pilots union chief aims for bigger arena | ajc.com


Guess it's official LM running for President.

Pineapple Guy

Carl, I really don't believe you are this ignorant of how the game really works. I don't. You just don't like the decisions being collectively made.

But to give you the benefit of the doubt, let me say it again.

The Master Chairman is responsible to and held accountable by the MEC. If they are unhappy with his approach, they can direct change. If he doesn't change, they can fire him. They (the individual elected reps) control the process, and set the tone. Now, I know a few who strongly oppose him, but the majority rules. And after 5 years, with multiple changes along the way, and not one single person who elected LM five years ago is still there, yet he still has the support of the majority of the elected reps. So unless you believe he is a hypnotist, then you are wrong -- it is the elected reps that have (wisely, in my opinion), chosen the path we are on. And until a MAJORITY of reps decide to move away from that path, that is the path we will stay on.

Also, and I know you guys hate it when we say this, but everyone is moving toward that approach at the present, because the alternative has been shown to be an abject failure every where it was in place, with AMR and LCC two shining examples. APA has changed; USAPA may never, but then they will likely never move off their pathetic rates either.

So quit blaming one man. If you want radical change; direct your reps. THAT'S where the responsibility lies, as it should.

hockeypilot44

Those of you that think the scope battle is over are naive. Delta has 0 narrow-body aircraft on order. Tran States has 100 Mitsubishi jets on order (100 seat aircraft) with no where to fly them. Republic is taking delivery of E-190's and has C-series jets on order. These regionals are securing 100 seat jets to start taking delivery in 5 years with no where to fly them. Common sense says that Delta is going to ride the life out of our current narrow bodies, then try to outsource them. ALPA represents us and Tran States. Delta could very easily turn into a 5000 pilot airline without ever furloughing. I can already hear the arguments.

Delta management: We have 800 pilots retiring this year and no airplanes on order. We're going to shrink. We still need more lift though so we'll hire some outside lift to feed our international market. It won't affect you guys though because we're still hiring.

ALPA: We need a 20 pecent raise to make this happen.

Delta management: Done. See we can still get along.

DAWGS

Same scenario during C2K, only C2K12 sub the the 100 seater for 70 seater. I remember the arguments then, "what are we going to do, the company already has the jets on order?" Funny how history repeats itself. I guess the C2K12 reason will be that we don't have the lift at mainline.

ALPA already has been laying the groundwork over the last few years by stating the number of RJs are down, economics will take care of the RJs.....blah, blah, blah. All I see is bigger RJs (mainline jets=our jobs, nothing regional about them) flying MORE of our pax. Of course there are fewer RJs, because they are putting the pax on OUR (should be ours) bigger RJ jets. How is that a victory ALPA for the Delta Pilot? ALL of our guys should now realize that ALPA doesn't represent us. For the latest indicator, look no further than the letter from our leader and its list of threats to our jobs. Was the 100 seat market mentioned as a threat. Funny how he seemed to mention everything but that! Do you think he would have mentioned this threat if we were not part of ALPA? Hopefully, the vast majority will support the choice we have in front of us.

And as far as the number of pilots, you are right on the money. How many pilots did we have C2K, 10200? And how many at the merger?

acl65pilot

Funny thing is that I do not know one rep,(I know a lot of them) that will sign off on any scope sales. Not for a 100% pay bump, not for a pension, etc. These guys get it, so I rest very well at night with the guys that are in there.

Even if one or two want to sell the bottom for the top, the majority of the reps will not allow that to happen.

Talk about scare tactics!

Also, if they would approve it and even if it had every other item you demand, we the pilot group would need to vote it down. If we did not then once again it falls on us.

I cannot stand the blame game. We are professionals that make decisions every day, blaming National or any other figure head for the way we were voted because of their scare tactics is just absurd. Most pilots do not blindly trust anyone. It is our nature, but then to go and blame someone you "trust," I do not buy it.

johnso29

Agreed. They know if they relax scope any further ALPA will be done, and this whole debate will be a moot point. National may not get it, but I'm confident DALPA does.

DAWGS

ACL,

With all due respect, you weren't here and were on the other side of the tracks (benefiting side) when this all went down. You haven't been on the sour side yet. And I do mention yet, because the good intentions of our reps always seem to be swayed by the bigger picture of national. I have seen it before with what the reps said and what they did. I could care less about what people think they will do, all I see is past actions of our ALPA reps. Moak and this admin and previous before them have done nothing but weaken RJ scope. Line in the sand and unilateral decisons with Moak. Relaxing of RJ percentages with regard to our flying after 2001, all the while furloughing over a 1000 of our pilots, while you benefited. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way when you say, scare tactics. PLZZZZ....my eyes are wide open. Past speaks volumes.

And BTW, much damage was done without MEMRAT.

acl65pilot

I agree that there are issues with some of the ppl and their ineffectiveness within ALPA, but that requires a personnel change, not a change in the organization. Same could be said of present day national politics.

I truly feel that besides the above, it is misdirected angst, and anger. The industry has stunk for ten plus years, and pilots are rightfully mad. We (you) are directing your anger at something, anything, because of the frustration of where we are and where we need to be. It in the end divides the group on a local level and national level, when now more than ever unity is what is needed to overcome the last decade.

Divided armed forces who are not working together never succeed.

Be angry at the industry, LLC's destroying margins, former company leaders that leveraged the company, inept figure heads of our union who talk a talk but cannot walk a walk, government who wants an unregulated regulated industry, consumers that will not pay for the services they demand, previous airline managers who were drunk with over capacity, CH11, and the forces leveraged against this and other groups, but going after other pilots and an organization that by most accounts has stopped the erosion is in my opinion misguided.

You do not need to believe 100% of what an organization or leader says. Support what you agree with and then work on the items you do not. If there is a failure to listen, then direct the change you want.

Engagement with the company, government, airline manufacturers and regulatory agencies is not just desired it is needed for the world we live in. Pilots need to understand that engagement does not mean accepting "less," it means doing your homework and knowing exactly what the upper and lower limits are and then leveraging our engagement to those ends.