Delta Pilots Association
11-27-2013, 12:39 PM
#8661
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Both sides of an argument ALWAYS matter to me. In my business, I don't tolerate yes men around me. I need to see the opposite viewpoint of my own.
Carl
11-27-2013, 12:45 PM
#8662
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Fair enough. Here's some facts.
The latest E&FA Report shows DAL's 3Q13 pretax margin at 11.5%, up 3.7% from 3Q12's 7.8%. As for the 1996-2000 time period you described, the annual pretax margins were 8.9%, 10.8%, 12.0%, 11.3%, and 8%. (And yes, I know I'm comparing quarterly to annual percentages, I just don't have time to pull up the YTD numbers. If you have 'em, by all means post it.) Better shape in 1996-2000? Sure, but not by much.
Further, there are a number of things we as pilots do not control: the price of fuel, interest rates, how much the company borrows, what the company spends its money on (like $1B in stock buy backs and dividends), etc... All of these affect pretax margin and none of them are within our control.
Fuel is one of the biggest cost items for an airline. During the period 1996-2000 the avg price of a barrel of oil per year was $22.12, $20.61, $14.42, $19.34, and $30.38 respectively. What is it now? Do you think that has got a lot to do with our pretax margin? ABSOLUTELY. Sure I'd like fuel prices to stay low, but if they don't I'm not going to fret----or willingly hand over my wallet. And I'm not going to let high fuel prices dictate my worth.
What has CEO and other executive pay done since the "more profitable" timeframe of 1996-2000 to now? It's gone through the roof, pretax margins be damned.
Do you really not think you're worth the $ you were paid a DECADE ago? I know you do, but you're going to have to start making pilot arguments for why this is the case. The problem is we have too many pilots that believe they are managers. Management is perfectly capable of making its arguments. Although it's certainly easier for them when the pilots voluntarily help out.
The latest E&FA Report shows DAL's 3Q13 pretax margin at 11.5%, up 3.7% from 3Q12's 7.8%. As for the 1996-2000 time period you described, the annual pretax margins were 8.9%, 10.8%, 12.0%, 11.3%, and 8%. (And yes, I know I'm comparing quarterly to annual percentages, I just don't have time to pull up the YTD numbers. If you have 'em, by all means post it.) Better shape in 1996-2000? Sure, but not by much.
Further, there are a number of things we as pilots do not control: the price of fuel, interest rates, how much the company borrows, what the company spends its money on (like $1B in stock buy backs and dividends), etc... All of these affect pretax margin and none of them are within our control.
Fuel is one of the biggest cost items for an airline. During the period 1996-2000 the avg price of a barrel of oil per year was $22.12, $20.61, $14.42, $19.34, and $30.38 respectively. What is it now? Do you think that has got a lot to do with our pretax margin? ABSOLUTELY. Sure I'd like fuel prices to stay low, but if they don't I'm not going to fret----or willingly hand over my wallet. And I'm not going to let high fuel prices dictate my worth.
What has CEO and other executive pay done since the "more profitable" timeframe of 1996-2000 to now? It's gone through the roof, pretax margins be damned.
Do you really not think you're worth the $ you were paid a DECADE ago? I know you do, but you're going to have to start making pilot arguments for why this is the case. The problem is we have too many pilots that believe they are managers. Management is perfectly capable of making its arguments. Although it's certainly easier for them when the pilots voluntarily help out.
What were the numbers for 2012, 2011, 2010?
11-27-2013, 02:09 PM
#8663
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Typical acl, non-responsive straw man arguments.
Carl
11-27-2013, 02:17 PM
#8664
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
DALPA Website - click on council page, read updates. Not hard to find at all unless you don't know your ALPA login. Most of Detroits end up on the DPA website anyway along with some from Seattle, so I'd say that was a wide distribution. ALPA Watch (link) also did an extensive Pro Con using the letters from Seattle, Detroit and Minneapolis. Cajole away.
Carl
11-27-2013, 02:21 PM
#8665
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Absolutely false. In fact, the exact opposite is true. ACL refused to sign the letter drafted by the mutineers. The letter he DID sign was in direct opposition to the Hazard cabal.
After a lengthy meeting with his fellow ATL reps the day before the recall meeting, they reached "consensus," in other words, he did an about face and caved to political pressure. Not the kind of guy I want representing me.
After a lengthy meeting with his fellow ATL reps the day before the recall meeting, they reached "consensus," in other words, he did an about face and caved to political pressure. Not the kind of guy I want representing me.
Carl
11-28-2013, 06:20 AM
#8666
Wind the clock beoch
Joined APC: May 2012
Posts: 437
You stated that we need a vote to get this done so we can move on. I agree with you. Using Bar's logic, signing a letter and signing a card don't signify support, they're only the mechanism to have the issue teed up. You're then free to vote accordingly.
So Johnson, will you send in your card to expedite the process? If you really want to "get this done" that's the only logical move to make.
One thing you and I agree on is that the issue needs to be voted on so we can all move on accordingly. Will you do your part?
11-28-2013, 08:10 AM
#8668
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Road construction signholder
Posts: 2,440
Of course they haven't--and they never will. They are the middle-school equivalent of "free beer tomorrow." They will slowly slide into the irrelevance they have always merited. While they claim "ALPA hacked our website and we're going to the FBI!" and can't see past that, ALPA actually gets it--the far vaster threat to our careers is the Emirates and Etihads of the world, not E-VILL (mwah hah hah) Moak.
Being a national union that can get a seat in the room and at least speak its voice in Washington is a very important thing. The DPA? They would be the equivalent of someone stuck outside the barricaded doors, fruitlessly pounding on the doors of the already-locked vault.
Being a national union that can get a seat in the room and at least speak its voice in Washington is a very important thing. The DPA? They would be the equivalent of someone stuck outside the barricaded doors, fruitlessly pounding on the doors of the already-locked vault.
11-28-2013, 08:45 AM
#8669
Sho me da money!
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: B25, Left
Posts: 947
Of course they haven't--and they never will. They are the middle-school equivalent of "free beer tomorrow." They will slowly slide into the irrelevance they have always merited. While they claim "ALPA hacked our website and we're going to the FBI!" and can't see past that, ALPA actually gets it--the far vaster threat to our careers is the Emirates and Etihads of the world, not E-VILL (mwah hah hah) Moak.
Being a national union that can get a seat in the room and at least speak its voice in Washington is a very important thing. The DPA? They would be the equivalent of someone stuck outside the barricaded doors, fruitlessly pounding on the doors of the already-locked vault.
Being a national union that can get a seat in the room and at least speak its voice in Washington is a very important thing. The DPA? They would be the equivalent of someone stuck outside the barricaded doors, fruitlessly pounding on the doors of the already-locked vault.
A man who gets it!!
Do we want to support a group that still needs to buy staplers and re-invent the wheel? Or do we stick together and focus on the real dangers??Happy Thanksgiving Herk!!
11-29-2013, 06:27 AM
#8670
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Yes. It's so surprising that you don't. In fact, you mock the very idea.
Full disclosure, the bold above are my edits of your sentence to make any sense out of it whatsoever.
I've listed my plan many, many times in detail. But I'm struck by your statement here. You're an elected rep. Don't YOU want every work rule, every nuance, and every benefit restored? Why are you mocking me for wanting this? We had these things when Delta was less profitable than we are now, so why the mocking now acl?
Standard DALPA talking point anytime someone puts forth a plan that DALPA doesn't agree with. Along with "Waving your gun" (and yes it's waving not waiving), and the ever popular "Burning the house down.,
You argue against it acl. You specifically argue against restoration. You mock even the attempt to restore.
Carl
I've listed my plan many, many times in detail. But I'm struck by your statement here. You're an elected rep. Don't YOU want every work rule, every nuance, and every benefit restored? Why are you mocking me for wanting this? We had these things when Delta was less profitable than we are now, so why the mocking now acl?
You argue against it acl. You specifically argue against restoration. You mock even the attempt to restore.
Carl
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