slowplay

DAL was in better financial shape 1996-2000 (98 being the best year), which set the stage for C2K. It had better operating and pretax margins and a much lower debt.

Let's please discuss from facts.

slowplay

The recall should never have happened. KR should have resigned. In my memory he's the first MEC Chair at DAL to force a recall vote...GH, BS, and CG all resigned when it was clear they'd lost the support of the majority of the guys they worked for. KR took it to a vote. Why? Post recall his answer was pure politics... he wanted blame and division, not what was best for Delta pilots. "Bloody fingerprints" and all. No wonder Carl misses him.

I've gone back and looked at the various council comm again. I see a majority of reps articulating performance reasons for recall. I see the minority practicing the politics of personal destruction. No facts. No performance evaluation. Just high school student council finger pointing. Sure wish they'd raise their game.

There's an election coming up in a couple of weeks. It'd be nice if the MEC would collectively look forward for all our best interests.

Bucking Bar

Good insight

index

Fair enough. Here's some facts.

The latest E&FA Report shows DAL's 3Q13 pretax margin at 11.5%, up 3.7% from 3Q12's 7.8%. As for the 1996-2000 time period you described, the annual pretax margins were 8.9%, 10.8%, 12.0%, 11.3%, and 8%. (And yes, I know I'm comparing quarterly to annual percentages, I just don't have time to pull up the YTD numbers. If you have 'em, by all means post it.) Better shape in 1996-2000? Sure, but not by much.

Further, there are a number of things we as pilots do not control: the price of fuel, interest rates, how much the company borrows, what the company spends its money on (like $1B in stock buy backs and dividends), etc... All of these affect pretax margin and none of them are within our control.

Fuel is one of the biggest cost items for an airline. During the period 1996-2000 the avg price of a barrel of oil per year was $22.12, $20.61, $14.42, $19.34, and $30.38 respectively. What is it now? Do you think that has got a lot to do with our pretax margin? ABSOLUTELY. Sure I'd like fuel prices to stay low, but if they don't I'm not going to fret----or willingly hand over my wallet. And I'm not going to let high fuel prices dictate my worth.

What has CEO and other executive pay done since the "more profitable" timeframe of 1996-2000 to now? It's gone through the roof, pretax margins be damned.

Do you really not think you're worth the $ you were paid a DECADE ago? I know you do, but you're going to have to start making pilot arguments for why this is the case. The problem is we have too many pilots that believe they are managers. Management is perfectly capable of making its arguments. Although it's certainly easier for them when the pilots voluntarily help out.

Bucking Bar

The letter called for a hearing, not an outcome. As things tuned out, the hearing cleared and confirmed those Officers.

ACL wanted the facts out on the table for consideration.I know additional facts came to light that day that none of the four anticipated. Four smart men saw these facts and reached the same conclusions.

Just as I wrote here on this board, when I spoke to my Reps they had completely different ways of reaching the same conclusions. I figured when they got together they would find common ground, more reinforcing each other's concerns than disputing them.

Many seem to have misunderstood the second letter, seeing it purely as reactionary politics (and perhaps for some it was), but, there were some who just wanted to gain the full view of the facts. ACL's nature, as you have seen on this board is to dig ... he's not happy just to know bleed air powers the packs ... the's the guy who wants to know which stage the bleed comes from and when the hi stage valve opens and closes ... he was a LCA at his previous carrier after all.

In this instance there was an unusual problem, as Slowplay explained. The first action might have been obvious, but for some the second letter was digging into the mechanics of the thing.

index

I put consensus in quotes to expression my cynicism about the term. "Consensus" is ALPA speak for get your butt in line. It goes hand in hand with "unity"- another favorite that has been used time and time again by the ruling elite.

index

Well I don't know the debate. Why don't you share your logic on how you came up with "at least two negotiating cycles" to reach restoration? So is it 2? At least 2, does that mean 3? Or could it be 4, that's at least 2, right? You said not two from now, is it going to happen this time around?

boog123

"You are the best"
"No, you are"
"No, no. you are, really, top notch"
"Thanks, but I really think you are"
"We are great, aren't we? Really smart"
"Yes, we are. Everyone else sees it too"

Bucking Bar

Index,

Wish that Sonny McDowall and Hollis Harris were still around to talk to. Prior to the ratification of Contract 2000, there was relatively open discussion that the agreement would never be honored. For a variety of reasons, chiefly under advice from McKinsey Consultants, Delta was going to reorganize in bankruptcy. Delta had no more intention of honoring Contract 2000 than United management had of honoring theirs. We really followed in United's footsteps, but did better both as a business and as a pilot group.

I always come back to the scope section because it is so easy to show, in fleet numbers, the unsustainability of the basic concept. In over simplified terms there were was a 3 to 1 mainline to RJ ratio. But, Delta had already ordered 500 mostly growth RJ's. Did anyone seriously think there was a 1,500 mainline jet order coming to keep up? That would have put Delta mainline at something around 2,100 jets (if memory serves, this was a long time ago).

This isn't to discredit the high water mark, but hopefully help folks understand that what pilots accepted as reality was something management had very little, if any, intention of honoring. For Leo Mullin, it was an interim placeholder which would be renegotiated in bankruptcy. ALPA took the heat from a lot of angles for the fact management entered into a deal with less than the best of intentions.

Notwithstanding this history, I expect we will see C2000 and the C2004 rates in C2015.

We need the rest of the industry to catch up if we are to ever restore our real earning power and QOL. That job requires a national union.

johnso29

STILL not enough cards.