Delta Pilots Association
11-25-2013, 06:33 AM
#8531
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
The DPA is a grassroots union drive run on a shoestring budget, hampered by the company, who has plenty to lose if ALPA is voted out.
ALPA is a well-funded propaganda juggernaut with a catalog of multi-media eyewash at its disposal, utilized to mislead us and misrepresent the contents of its rushed and inadequate product. Not to mention, it has unfettered access our to email addresses and v-files.
Last edited by Purple Drank; 11-25-2013 at 06:50 AM.
11-25-2013, 06:35 AM
#8532
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
No question about that Denny, but I don't think that was his point. His point was the amount by which you exceed the bar during pattern bargaining. UAL exceeded your bar by a large amount in their contract. DALPA only exceeded UAL's bar by a very small fraction in their 2000 contract.
Carl
Carl
I'm not going to get into the DPA/DALPA discussion. Let's face it, no one is going to change anyone's mind on APC. However, I do want to try and keep the facts straight in the discussion.!
Denny
11-25-2013, 08:04 AM
#8533
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Your clumsy attempt to compare the DPA and an ALPA contract sales job is so flawed I don't even know where to start.
The DPA is a grassroots union drive run on a shoestring budget, hampered by the company, who has plenty to lose if ALPA is voted out.
ALPA is a well-funded propaganda juggernaut with a catalog of multi-media eyewash at its disposal, utilized to mislead us and misrepresent the contents of its rushed and inadequate product. Not to mention, it has unfettered access our to email addresses and v-files.
The DPA is a grassroots union drive run on a shoestring budget, hampered by the company, who has plenty to lose if ALPA is voted out.
ALPA is a well-funded propaganda juggernaut with a catalog of multi-media eyewash at its disposal, utilized to mislead us and misrepresent the contents of its rushed and inadequate product. Not to mention, it has unfettered access our to email addresses and v-files.
That was almost Gloopy-esque in its entirety, in a good way.
Still, I agree with many that a vote needs to happen sooner rather than later. I'm firm on my timeframe. That does not mean ALPA won me back, just that reality did.
11-25-2013, 08:32 AM
#8534
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
I have also pledged to withdraw my support if no vote is announced by the end of the year.
11-25-2013, 08:32 AM
#8535
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Why would DALPA limit themselves to 18.2% raises next time? Oh you mean full restoration like with buying power too, oh and pensions?(yeah lets put our retirement back in the hands of those that terminated em)
Point is, the word restoration feels good, but has multiple meanings for a lot of pilots here at DAL.
What does it mean for a fNWA guy/gal versus a fDAL guy/gal? What were NWA's former top rates? Does this PWA hit em? How close does it get?
See I was less than thrilled with last years PWA, but it was determined, debated, resolved. Its high time we move on and focus on now what we should have done, but how we work going forward. Difference today is a company with real profits, not projections, a S&P listed company, one paying dividends, one paying exces and others well, and one that has lead the industry in PRASM for something like 23 of the last 24 quarters. We are also going to be in a "up economy" with the rest of the industry effectively equal on total compensation. I'd say the negotiating environment looks better this round, kind of like C2K with some notable differences, like debt.
I'd also say that DAL pilots have previously enjoyed a premium from the rest of the US sector and given where we are, it is time to put that back as a discussion point. Openers are 15 months out so lets look forward.
Point is, the word restoration feels good, but has multiple meanings for a lot of pilots here at DAL.
What does it mean for a fNWA guy/gal versus a fDAL guy/gal? What were NWA's former top rates? Does this PWA hit em? How close does it get?
See I was less than thrilled with last years PWA, but it was determined, debated, resolved. Its high time we move on and focus on now what we should have done, but how we work going forward. Difference today is a company with real profits, not projections, a S&P listed company, one paying dividends, one paying exces and others well, and one that has lead the industry in PRASM for something like 23 of the last 24 quarters. We are also going to be in a "up economy" with the rest of the industry effectively equal on total compensation. I'd say the negotiating environment looks better this round, kind of like C2K with some notable differences, like debt.
I'd also say that DAL pilots have previously enjoyed a premium from the rest of the US sector and given where we are, it is time to put that back as a discussion point. Openers are 15 months out so lets look forward.
First, as a representative, you seem confused and conflicted.
As per restoration. We are a blended family now. Let's make it easy. The highest pre bk rate at Northwest + the highest pre bk rate at Delta divided by 2.
Then, adjust that figure for inflation. Simple.
That, I would say, is a fair target for DALPA. They should not be confused with the definition nor the goal.
The pilots of both airlines contributed voluntarily and through the 1113 process. The pilots concessions have been saving Delta billions since emerging in April of 2007.
We are now all overdue for a return on our investment.
Anyway, sure like your sunny and nice forecast for negotiations. That's nice. It's about actions though. What actions is DALPA prepared to take to leverage that. Is that possible with constructive engagement? I seem to recall we scored 4-8-3-3 with that
And concerning the pensions, laughable to think anyone here would even entertain that. As I recall (before your time) there was a vocal group wanting to get the pensions in our own names, like AMR.
DALPA rejected that idea in the late 90's/early 2000 time frame. Why? Their reason was that the pensions were overfunded and the need to protect was nil. The claim was there was a greater risk in having the pension in our own names than having Delta administer it.
Oh, and semantics really. You made a statement about putting the pension "back in the hands of those that terminated it."
We, as pilots and DALPA, voluntarily terminated it.
The company hastened the downfall by underfunding in the 90's and making poor investment decisions. They later did not contribute to it sometime post 9/11. Then the mass exit with lumps spiked it.
What was DALPA doing to protect it or raise concerns.
Sure would have been nice had it been frozen vs terminated.
11-25-2013, 08:39 AM
#8536
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
Disagree. The legal resources we currently use in negotiation have a conflicting interest to the pilot group, but, not necessarily to the DALPA Committee/MEC members.
It is appealing to think that perhaps one day we as pilots could hire a law firm to represent our needs without succumbing to prejudice and outside or parallel interests.
And as for economic resources, please. An investment bank is much better suited for that than EFA ever will be.
As for safety, can't speak to that accurately but I believe it is outsourced/made available to other outside unions as well like aeromedical.
And as to influence in Washington, debatable. Stark reality is that no matter how large ALPA is, they will never have the financial firepower that A for A has or Boeing.
Only real tool ALPA has is SOS if a situation was definitely career threatening. Question is, would they ever use it? I'd say doubtful with LM there in Virginia.
It is appealing to think that perhaps one day we as pilots could hire a law firm to represent our needs without succumbing to prejudice and outside or parallel interests.
And as for economic resources, please. An investment bank is much better suited for that than EFA ever will be.
As for safety, can't speak to that accurately but I believe it is outsourced/made available to other outside unions as well like aeromedical.
And as to influence in Washington, debatable. Stark reality is that no matter how large ALPA is, they will never have the financial firepower that A for A has or Boeing.
Only real tool ALPA has is SOS if a situation was definitely career threatening. Question is, would they ever use it? I'd say doubtful with LM there in Virginia.
Didn't the DAL MEC hire an "outside law firm" for C2K that was next I useless yet cost the pilots a significant amount of money?
Your knowledge of the ALPA EFA is incorrect.
Safety isn't outsourced, AFAIK. AMAS is available but at a cost, and we wouldn't be buying with the "group discount" anymore.
Influence in DC? You do realize that ALPA won the court case and got the Ex-Im bank. They pushed the FAR 117, got the cargo cut out to the Senate floor for removal; have ensured FFDO funding for the last 3 years when the WH and House have tried to reduce it to $0. Wrote and got bi-partisan sponsorship to stop CBP Preclearance facilites.... Boeing isn't the only threat in DC, and ALPA is winning way more often than not.
A4A's CEO is afraid to oppose ALPA's legislative agenda.
I think LM is willing to play hardball if it was the only way; but burning bridges in DC has consequences. It much easier to influence policy when you are at the table (ALPA) than if you are stuck outside the building (CAPA).
We will disagree all day long, it's a matter of opinions versus facts and the ability to actually produce for members. I still think ALPA is the best avenue, you don't. We will both try to improve the lot for Delta pilots together as we go forward, a great Thanksgiving to The Manager and every Apc'er!
11-25-2013, 08:51 AM
#8537
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,967
Can the pilot masses be trusted to stay informed enough to actually have logical and valid opinions about what is best for the pilot group... Or in the alternative is it better that the pilots let a select group of managers do almost all the thinking and decision making?
No matter what union you have, there will always be a group of pilots that doubt the wisdom of trusting decisions to the will of the line pilots. The type of union you choose determines whether or not that approach has the power.
11-25-2013, 10:01 AM
#8538
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: "Prof" button manipulator
Posts: 1,685
11-25-2013, 03:17 PM
#8539
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Neither. I accept outcomes that have me in the minority and move on. Its the only way to move forward. That's reality.
How about you answer the question.
To your suggestion, what is that then. COLA and actual dollar amount? On both it is less than the war drum that may are beating, including you.
See above
Its a lot more attainable than many think. You run the math yet?
No one disagrees its about getting it within the limits set on our profession.
Projections of profit versus where we are. What DALPA will do will depend on the pilots desires and then the environment.
Apparently not a majority
Point was a rebuke the pilots' wanting to go back to it, not to have something administered by ALPA nor something that started the clock on longevity today.
Nice and reality are two different things, and all of our careers and the real world have proved that.
Good post, saved me some time 
As per restoration. We are a blended family now. Let's make it easy. The highest pre bk rate at Northwest + the highest pre bk rate at Delta divided by 2.
To your suggestion, what is that then. COLA and actual dollar amount? On both it is less than the war drum that may are beating, including you.
Then, adjust that figure for inflation. Simple.
That, I would say, is a fair target for DALPA. They should not be confused with the definition nor the goal.
The pilots of both airlines contributed voluntarily and through the 1113 process. The pilots concessions have been saving Delta billions since emerging in April of 2007.
We are now all overdue for a return on our investment.
We are now all overdue for a return on our investment.
Anyway, sure like your sunny and nice forecast for negotiations. That's nice. It's about actions though. What actions is DALPA prepared to take to leverage that. Is that possible with constructive engagement? I seem to recall we scored 4-8-3-3 with that
And concerning the pensions, laughable to think anyone here would even entertain that. As I recall (before your time) there was a vocal group wanting to get the pensions in our own names, like AMR.
DALPA rejected that idea in the late 90's/early 2000 time frame. Why? Their reason was that the pensions were overfunded and the need to protect was nil. The claim was there was a greater risk in having the pension in our own names than having Delta administer it.
Oh, and semantics really. You made a statement about putting the pension "back in the hands of those that terminated it."
We, as pilots and DALPA, voluntarily terminated it.
The company hastened the downfall by underfunding in the 90's and making poor investment decisions. They later did not contribute to it sometime post 9/11. Then the mass exit with lumps spiked it.
What was DALPA doing to protect it or raise concerns.
Sure would have been nice had it been frozen vs terminated.
We, as pilots and DALPA, voluntarily terminated it.
The company hastened the downfall by underfunding in the 90's and making poor investment decisions. They later did not contribute to it sometime post 9/11. Then the mass exit with lumps spiked it.
What was DALPA doing to protect it or raise concerns.
Sure would have been nice had it been frozen vs terminated.
Still haven't shown me proof that our attorneys have ever favored the outsourced flying over the pilot group that has allowed "permitted flying" (which DAL and NWA had allowed in their contracts since the start)
Didn't the DAL MEC hire an "outside law firm" for C2K that was next I useless yet cost the pilots a significant amount of money?
Your knowledge of the ALPA EFA is incorrect.
Safety isn't outsourced, AFAIK. AMAS is available but at a cost, and we wouldn't be buying with the "group discount" anymore.
Influence in DC? You do realize that ALPA won the court case and got the Ex-Im bank. They pushed the FAR 117, got the cargo cut out to the Senate floor for removal; have ensured FFDO funding for the last 3 years when the WH and House have tried to reduce it to $0. Wrote and got bi-partisan sponsorship to stop CBP Preclearance facilites.... Boeing isn't the only threat in DC, and ALPA is winning way more often than not.
A4A's CEO is afraid to oppose ALPA's legislative agenda.
I think LM is willing to play hardball if it was the only way; but burning bridges in DC has consequences. It much easier to influence policy when you are at the table (ALPA) than if you are stuck outside the building (CAPA).
We will disagree all day long, it's a matter of opinions versus facts and the ability to actually produce for members. I still think ALPA is the best avenue, you don't. We will both try to improve the lot for Delta pilots together as we go forward, a great Thanksgiving to The Manager and every Apc'er!
Didn't the DAL MEC hire an "outside law firm" for C2K that was next I useless yet cost the pilots a significant amount of money?
Your knowledge of the ALPA EFA is incorrect.
Safety isn't outsourced, AFAIK. AMAS is available but at a cost, and we wouldn't be buying with the "group discount" anymore.
Influence in DC? You do realize that ALPA won the court case and got the Ex-Im bank. They pushed the FAR 117, got the cargo cut out to the Senate floor for removal; have ensured FFDO funding for the last 3 years when the WH and House have tried to reduce it to $0. Wrote and got bi-partisan sponsorship to stop CBP Preclearance facilites.... Boeing isn't the only threat in DC, and ALPA is winning way more often than not.
A4A's CEO is afraid to oppose ALPA's legislative agenda.
I think LM is willing to play hardball if it was the only way; but burning bridges in DC has consequences. It much easier to influence policy when you are at the table (ALPA) than if you are stuck outside the building (CAPA).
We will disagree all day long, it's a matter of opinions versus facts and the ability to actually produce for members. I still think ALPA is the best avenue, you don't. We will both try to improve the lot for Delta pilots together as we go forward, a great Thanksgiving to The Manager and every Apc'er!
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