Delta Pilots Association
11-13-2013, 03:05 PM
#8262
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
GMAB. I haven't used SWA pilots as "the gold standard." Their compensation is simply one of several things that help make a good case for significant restoration of our compensation. And DALPA refuses to use this to our advantage or to even acknowledge that it exists. It's ridiculous that I've had to spend so much time arguing about how much SWA pilots make, because it is well documented and not open to interpretation (despite DALPA's attempts to manipulate the comparative data and make us look better than we really are).
So... they cut our pay by 42%, take away a significant portion of our retirement benefit, and outsource thousands of jobs so that our advancement is stagnated. This is all done because of an extreme financial crisis for the company. Then, when the crisis is over and the company is doing extremely well, they leave the bulk of the cuts in and expect us to just suck it up and accept it as the new deal. As things stand today, that represents probably a 30 to 40% reduction in the value of our careers. What kind of rationalization does a person have to go through to come around to seeing that as treating us well?
So... they cut our pay by 42%, take away a significant portion of our retirement benefit, and outsource thousands of jobs so that our advancement is stagnated. This is all done because of an extreme financial crisis for the company. Then, when the crisis is over and the company is doing extremely well, they leave the bulk of the cuts in and expect us to just suck it up and accept it as the new deal. As things stand today, that represents probably a 30 to 40% reduction in the value of our careers. What kind of rationalization does a person have to go through to come around to seeing that as treating us well?
If you want to acknowledge the bad, you must also acknowledge the good. The improvements may not be coming as fast as you want, but they're happening. And at a faster rate then most of the industry.
11-13-2013, 03:30 PM
#8263
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
So you're saying that DALPA never compared our wages and earnings to SWA pilots? And that Delta pilots are still working under a 42% paycut? And that the company no longer has $10 BILLION dollars in debt? Or that work rules and pay have not improved since exiting BK or since the merger? Or that our DC isn't one of the best in the industry?
If you want to acknowledge the bad, you must also acknowledge the good. The improvements may not be coming as fast as you want, but they're happening. And at a faster rate then most of the industry.
If you want to acknowledge the bad, you must also acknowledge the good. The improvements may not be coming as fast as you want, but they're happening. And at a faster rate then most of the industry.
What I have said (and was referring to in my post) is that we are STILL at a ~32.5% pay cut in buying power. This, almost a decade later and with our company making billions in profits with a strong outlook for more of the same or even better. Of course we've had some pay rate increases over the past decade since bankruptcy. Otherwise we'd be at about a 64% pay cut in buying power right now.
I fully acknowledge all the gains as well as all the losses. And when it's all said and done, we're still having to live with what amounts to a 32.5% pay cut. But you won't hear anything like that from DALPA... because their objective is not restoration and they are doing their best to manage this pilot group's expectations and keep us all happy with getting what would under normal circumstances be considered some pretty decent pay increases... except in this case those increases are to the bankruptcy reset that DALPA has allowed to be established as the new baseline.
On the positive side, our DC is the best I've seen from any company anywhere. I'm extremely happy with our setup. For most of us who lost the pension halfway through our careers, it doesn't fully make up for that. But I think it could more than make up for the loss of pension if we'd get our pay back up to restorative levels, which would in turn dramatically increase the dollar amount of company contributions. For the younger guys, our retirement rocks!
As to DALPA's "contract comparison" to SWA... It was not an accurate comparison. They came up with a smoke and mirrors rate comparison that did not show the true difference in compensation, days worked, etc. Our average pilot is still significantly underpaid compared to SWA's average pilot working a similar number of days. DALPA sold us a bill of goods on that one. And I think it was intentional so that they could get us to accept less than what our surveys stated.
11-13-2013, 03:45 PM
#8264
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
11-13-2013, 04:12 PM
#8265
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
How insulting. I've been extremely specific about this, while you've been extremely dismissive and insulting about my specificity. I expect the exact same from you going forward. Nonetheless, for the umpteenth time:
Our leverage was, is, and always we be a strike. Any other form of perceived leverage is mere perception from the inexperienced. Thus, the question of an airline labor union using any real leverage is managing the NMB. Now you and many other rocking chair graduates have been told that the NMB is an insurmountable barrier by ALPA, so that's your mindset going in. It's actually false. Spirit is an example of how to get released for self-help, American is an example of how not to. Now as to the specifics of how to use the leverage we had or C2012:
First, set our contract opener to lead (by a lot) in every section. Not just pay, but every section.
Second, allow a sufficient time to pass for all parties to see an impasse is at hand.
Third, handle NMB involved mediation as follows: Clearly show how SWA, UPS, FDX, and our foreign JV competitors lead the industry in many metrics. Further show that Delta is enormously successful financially, operationally, and has exceedingly bright prospects (as stated by Delta management). Further, show that we will accept leading the airline industry in every section (even if only by a small margin). Finally, show that Delta would still be wildly successful and profitable if given what we are demanding in our final position.
If management still refused, the NMB would absolutely release us for self-help. Why? Because we would have done things the right way per the NMB. As stated earlier, now is where our real and only leverage comes in...and it is in the 30 day cooling off period where most things get done. In the interim, Delta management would be suffering on many fronts. Suffering on their reputation with Wall Street and all stakeholders.
That's what was available to us. Instead, we chose to never get close to using any leverage whatsoever.
Carl
Our leverage was, is, and always we be a strike. Any other form of perceived leverage is mere perception from the inexperienced. Thus, the question of an airline labor union using any real leverage is managing the NMB. Now you and many other rocking chair graduates have been told that the NMB is an insurmountable barrier by ALPA, so that's your mindset going in. It's actually false. Spirit is an example of how to get released for self-help, American is an example of how not to. Now as to the specifics of how to use the leverage we had or C2012:
First, set our contract opener to lead (by a lot) in every section. Not just pay, but every section.
Second, allow a sufficient time to pass for all parties to see an impasse is at hand.
Third, handle NMB involved mediation as follows: Clearly show how SWA, UPS, FDX, and our foreign JV competitors lead the industry in many metrics. Further show that Delta is enormously successful financially, operationally, and has exceedingly bright prospects (as stated by Delta management). Further, show that we will accept leading the airline industry in every section (even if only by a small margin). Finally, show that Delta would still be wildly successful and profitable if given what we are demanding in our final position.
If management still refused, the NMB would absolutely release us for self-help. Why? Because we would have done things the right way per the NMB. As stated earlier, now is where our real and only leverage comes in...and it is in the 30 day cooling off period where most things get done. In the interim, Delta management would be suffering on many fronts. Suffering on their reputation with Wall Street and all stakeholders.
That's what was available to us. Instead, we chose to never get close to using any leverage whatsoever.
Carl
Pinnacle was in negotiations for 8 years and was never even close to being released.
11-13-2013, 04:25 PM
#8266
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
You need to read a little more carefully. I didn't say any of those things.
What I have said (and was referring to in my post) is that we are STILL at a ~32.5% pay cut in buying power. This, almost a decade later and with our company making billions in profits with a strong outlook for more of the same or even better. Of course we've had some pay rate increases over the past decade since bankruptcy. Otherwise we'd be at about a 64% pay cut in buying power right now.
What I have said (and was referring to in my post) is that we are STILL at a ~32.5% pay cut in buying power. This, almost a decade later and with our company making billions in profits with a strong outlook for more of the same or even better. Of course we've had some pay rate increases over the past decade since bankruptcy. Otherwise we'd be at about a 64% pay cut in buying power right now.
As to DALPA's "contract comparison" to SWA... It was not an accurate comparison. They came up with a smoke and mirrors rate comparison that did not show the true difference in compensation, days worked, etc. Our average pilot is still significantly underpaid compared to SWA's average pilot working a similar number of days. DALPA sold us a bill of goods on that one. And I think it was intentional so that they could get us to accept less than what our surveys stated.
Last edited by johnso29; 11-13-2013 at 04:55 PM.
11-13-2013, 04:37 PM
#8267
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Am I correct that SWAPA's last TA included some rather small payrate increases? If they're really something special, you'd think they wouldn't let their differential to the rest of the industry decrease.
Or could it simply be that they've been lucky enough to work for a profitable airline, especially WRT fuel hedges?
Or could it simply be that they've been lucky enough to work for a profitable airline, especially WRT fuel hedges?
11-13-2013, 04:58 PM
#8268
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Just because my post included those numbers, doesn't mean you can take them out of context and apply them to something else to completely change the meaning of what I was saying. Either you are misunderstanding what I said, or you are being dishonest in an attempt to discredit what I said. Which is it?
DALPA provided a rate comparison with SWA pilots. The conversion factor they used did not take into consideration SWA's work rules, which allows their pilots to fly an average of 12 days/month and make substantially more than Delta's narrowbody domestic pilots. If you're going to compare our 777 or 747-400 pilots to SWA's pilots, then I think you're being intellectually dishonest.
And if we hadn't taken the 42% pay cut, I would be all FOR taking SWAPA's approach. Under normal circumstances, that is the way it's supposed to work and I strongly support that. But unless you consider the new baseline established by the 42% cut to be "normal circumstances", then SWAPA's (and DALPA's) approach cannot mathematically work for us within the time frame most (or maybe even all) of us have left in our careers.
Now if you're objective is to get good "reasonable" increases based on bankruptcy as the new baseline, then DALPA is ace of the bass.
Smoke and mirrors? I don't recall DALPA stating that all Delta pilots would make SWA pay. But that was never my point. My point was how SWA pilots got there. They got there by taking small bites of the apple. An apple provided by a healthy company that has been profitable for over 30 years. The SWA pilots have never negotiated rates close to C2K. So if you want to make SWA earnings, it's going to take an approach different then you're hoping DPA will take.
And if we hadn't taken the 42% pay cut, I would be all FOR taking SWAPA's approach. Under normal circumstances, that is the way it's supposed to work and I strongly support that. But unless you consider the new baseline established by the 42% cut to be "normal circumstances", then SWAPA's (and DALPA's) approach cannot mathematically work for us within the time frame most (or maybe even all) of us have left in our careers.
Now if you're objective is to get good "reasonable" increases based on bankruptcy as the new baseline, then DALPA is ace of the bass.
11-13-2013, 06:38 PM
#8269
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
O....K....
It is labor's only leverage. Any other perceived leverage is in your own mind.
Glad to see you finally admit that there are no circumstances under which you would strike. That's specifically what the rocking chair dude was looking for in candidates, and you certainly are the example of what he was screening for.
You have none whatsoever that could control the fate of negotiations. Anything you might attempt with those throttles in your hand would be deemed an illegal job action. Academic in your case, because you would never be part of any job action...legal or otherwise.
Carl
It is labor's only leverage. Any other perceived leverage is in your own mind.
Glad to see you finally admit that there are no circumstances under which you would strike. That's specifically what the rocking chair dude was looking for in candidates, and you certainly are the example of what he was screening for.
You have none whatsoever that could control the fate of negotiations. Anything you might attempt with those throttles in your hand would be deemed an illegal job action. Academic in your case, because you would never be part of any job action...legal or otherwise.
Carl
11-13-2013, 06:46 PM
#8270
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Yes, without question. Because we would have done it the right way.
If you really think that the NMB will never allow strikes anymore, then understand that you can only expect what management is already willing to give you. Just like the other non-union employees at Delta. Your union membership would be one in name only.
Apples and oranges given Pinnacle's disastrous finances. That is not the case at Delta.
Carl
If you really think that the NMB will never allow strikes anymore, then understand that you can only expect what management is already willing to give you. Just like the other non-union employees at Delta. Your union membership would be one in name only.
Carl
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