Delta Pilots Association
11-12-2013, 03:05 PM
#8211
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,308
Where did I say ANYTHING about blaming us for the sad state of the industry? I said we're partially to blame for not having made more recovery. We set a bar that essentially says restoration is not our objective. In our position of leadership, it seems obvious that this is detrimental to anyone else that would pursue restoration.
11-12-2013, 03:24 PM
#8212
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
If it's a competition to see who's the highest paid, then they've placed pretty high (almost won, but then there's that pesky SWA).
If it's pursuing the objective of restoring our profession and putting our careers back on track, then they've been a miserable failure... essentially sustaining the 32.5% pay cut we took almost a decade ago in an extreme emergency! Yeah, DALPA's set the bar for formerly bankrupt carriers. And that's part of the problem IMO... They've set a bar that essentially says we agree that we're not worth what we used to be and that we don't expect restoration. I think a good case could be made that we (DALPA) have screwed the pooch for the entire profession by demonstrating acceptance of bankruptcy as a new baseline from which we only expect "reasonable" improvements going forward. Imagine how much better everybody else might be doing if we had set a higher bar...
If it's pursuing the objective of restoring our profession and putting our careers back on track, then they've been a miserable failure... essentially sustaining the 32.5% pay cut we took almost a decade ago in an extreme emergency! Yeah, DALPA's set the bar for formerly bankrupt carriers. And that's part of the problem IMO... They've set a bar that essentially says we agree that we're not worth what we used to be and that we don't expect restoration. I think a good case could be made that we (DALPA) have screwed the pooch for the entire profession by demonstrating acceptance of bankruptcy as a new baseline from which we only expect "reasonable" improvements going forward. Imagine how much better everybody else might be doing if we had set a higher bar...
I think we share a big part of the blame. Primarily because of the success of our company and the prominence of our pilot group in the industry, we've been in a leadership position within our profession. We've been the first pilot group post-bankruptcy to be in a position to define how we will recover. And the "definition" we've given is that the extremely unreasonable cuts we took in bankruptcy were a reset, establishing a new baseline from which we only expect "reasonable" improvements going forward. How could we set a bar like that and NOT damage the others?
Our company is in much better financial shape than theirs and arguably has a better outlook for profits going forward. In almost 10 years, we've restored the 14% pay cut we took with an 1113 gun to our heads in bankruptcy and allowed the 32.5% pay cut we took prior to bankruptcy to stand.
With that kind of bar set by the pilot group that is supposedly leading the profession out of the abyss, why would you expect them to be able to exceed our rates?
If pattern bargaining is alive and well... based on our performance in an environment of extreme profits, we're screwed (and probably so is everybody else).
With that kind of bar set by the pilot group that is supposedly leading the profession out of the abyss, why would you expect them to be able to exceed our rates?
If pattern bargaining is alive and well... based on our performance in an environment of extreme profits, we're screwed (and probably so is everybody else).
Where did I say ANYTHING about blaming us for the sad state of the industry? I said we're partially to blame for not having made more recovery. We set a bar that essentially says restoration is not our objective. In our position of leadership, it seems obvious that this is detrimental to anyone else that would pursue restoration.
11-12-2013, 03:33 PM
#8213
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
If DALPA's goal is restoration, then why do they absolutely refuse to state it as such? If DALPA's goal is restoration, they why do they constantly argue against the kinds of improvements that are mathematically required to achieve it?
And how slow is acceptable to you? It's already been almost a full decade, and we're still at a 32.5% pay cut in buying power (not to mention the significant loss/increased cost of other benefits such as retirement and medical). At that rate, it would take a lot longer to achieve restoration than just about everyone in this current pilot group has left.
11-12-2013, 04:30 PM
#8214
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2013
Position: 7ERA
Posts: 950
If it's a competition to see who's the highest paid, then they've placed pretty high (almost won, but then there's that pesky SWA).
If it's pursuing the objective of restoring our profession and putting our careers back on track, then they've been a miserable failure... essentially sustaining the 32.5% pay cut we took almost a decade ago in an extreme emergency! Yeah, DALPA's set the bar for formerly bankrupt carriers. And that's part of the problem IMO... They've set a bar that essentially says we agree that we're not worth what we used to be and that we don't expect restoration. I think a good case could be made that we (DALPA) have screwed the pooch for the entire profession by demonstrating acceptance of bankruptcy as a new baseline from which we only expect "reasonable" improvements going forward. Imagine how much better everybody else might be doing if we had set a higher bar...
If it's pursuing the objective of restoring our profession and putting our careers back on track, then they've been a miserable failure... essentially sustaining the 32.5% pay cut we took almost a decade ago in an extreme emergency! Yeah, DALPA's set the bar for formerly bankrupt carriers. And that's part of the problem IMO... They've set a bar that essentially says we agree that we're not worth what we used to be and that we don't expect restoration. I think a good case could be made that we (DALPA) have screwed the pooch for the entire profession by demonstrating acceptance of bankruptcy as a new baseline from which we only expect "reasonable" improvements going forward. Imagine how much better everybody else might be doing if we had set a higher bar...
Where did I say ANYTHING about blaming us for the sad state of the industry? I said we're partially to blame for not having made more recovery. We set a bar that essentially says restoration is not our objective. In our position of leadership, it seems obvious that this is detrimental to anyone else that would pursue restoration.
11-12-2013, 04:55 PM
#8215
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You guys clearly despise anything that makes us look like other than perfection. DAL88driver wasn't nearly as tough on us as I was.
Again, nobody had a company that's more financially successful and in a better position than us with C2012. Nobody. We had a chance to demand an industry leading contract in every way. Even if it was just marginally leading. Instead we settled for COLA pay raises fully funded by concessions in other areas, while adding 70 additional 76 seat RJ's. in my opinion, we blew it. We took the very first offer from management before Section 6 even began.
We may not have gotten help from the others, but no other union was in a better position to lead than us. We squandered that opportunity and hurt the rest of the pilot profession in the process.
Carl
Again, nobody had a company that's more financially successful and in a better position than us with C2012. Nobody. We had a chance to demand an industry leading contract in every way. Even if it was just marginally leading. Instead we settled for COLA pay raises fully funded by concessions in other areas, while adding 70 additional 76 seat RJ's. in my opinion, we blew it. We took the very first offer from management before Section 6 even began.
We may not have gotten help from the others, but no other union was in a better position to lead than us. We squandered that opportunity and hurt the rest of the pilot profession in the process.
Carl
11-12-2013, 05:13 PM
#8217
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
We had a chance to lead, and we settled for a cost neutral contract.
Carl
11-12-2013, 05:44 PM
#8218
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Delta came out of bankruptcy with a good outlook for the future. And DALPA acted like everything was going pretty well for our pilots... no mention of anything like restoration. Welcome to DALPA's "new normal."
Then, in 2012, we had a company that had successfully put together one of the most if not THE most impressive mergers in the history of the industry and was making VERY significant profits, with an outlook for more of the same or even better. Did DALPA go for anything like restoration? Did DALPA even go for anything like what our pilots (after years of DALPA working to lower expectations) indicated on their surveys? No. DALPA gets 4-8.5-3-3 and allows more large RJ's so that Delta can provide a better product to our customers using pilots that are not Delta pilots. This, followed by a full court press sales pitch, complete with scare tactics, to get just enough of our pilots to be sure it gets voted in.
From 2007 through today (as I said before, because of the success of our company and the prominence of our pilot group), we've been in a position of leadership to set the bar for the industry. We've set a low bar. How can you possibly not recognize that this has hurt everyone's chances of restoration, including ours?
Now if your objective is not restoration, then it's a whole different story...
11-12-2013, 07:27 PM
#8219
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
11-12-2013, 07:39 PM
#8220
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Never said that either. I just said this:
Carl
Carl
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