Pineapple Guy

Never mind...

alfaromeo

Well, the cases are quite similar. USAPA basically ran on the same platform you list above. They did not make any claims to overturn the Nicolau award, at least in their official publications. They were going to be a "transparent" organization, they were going to cut spending and dues, they were going to get a new contract in 90 days. They made all sorts of promises. Their basic theme was, cut us away from ALPA and we will be freed from the shackles of that organization and we will be able to deliver everything back to the Airways pilots.

Instead, what you had was the forum loonies taking over the organization without any adult supervision. They have tested out every loony theory that comes up on these webboards and found out that they are really loony theories and that management does not care how courageous you think you are or how many temper tantrums you throw.

So these same webboard loonies take over the organization and are systematically destroying the careers of the entire pilot group. They have spent millions on lawyers in fruitless legal cases, they sued their own pilots, they have been sued by their own pilots, they have been sued by their management, their union is grossly divided and unable to accomplish a single thing. Did that cover it?

So if a group of pilots, who have no experience running a union, at least the three who have put their names on the organization, make a bunch of promises just like USAPA, with no experience or plan to back up those promises, then yes it is just the same. Yes, we all want "new and improved" and "20% better than the other detergent" but slogans are one thing and a track record of running a complicated organization are another. So far, the only support I see for this organization is the webboard warriors who want to test out their loony theories on yet another independent union. Sorry, but I am not ready to be the next test subject in the loony experiments. Most of those theories were tested in bankruptcy and they were all proven to be, well, loony and unsuccessful.

NWA320pilot

Personally I am not concerned with reducing my dues. What I am concerned about is having an organization that represents my interests and spends 100% of my dues money representing Delta pilots interests.

Check Essential

I'm no fan of USAPA, but -
You're omitting their reason for being and main goal (which they've accomplished):

4 years later, Nicolau is still just a piece of paper in the arbitrator's desk drawer.
USAPA has succeeded in stopping implementation of that seniority list.

alfaromeo

At what cost? If ALPA tried to force the LCC payrates on Delta there would be blood in the streets and you would be leading the pack, pitchfork and torch in hand. They have no work rules, no retirement, no benefits. Their contract is the worst in the industry and really no one else is even close. Victory!!!!!!!!!!!

DAWGS

I agree ALPA is very complicated. I like the KISS method.


What's with all the name calling? "Lucid" from a previous post and now "loony," all throughout this post. How about a little respect for people who have a difference of opinion. If ALPA was more interested in representing us, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


What a broad brush amigo. If there is any group capable of representing itself very well, it is this pilot group. Some of the brightest are amongst us. Allegiance to our cause should be primary, not some national group. There is nothing Lny about that goal.

Carl Spackler

Exactly right. But in order to compare USAPA and DPA, you must ignore this main reason USAPA was voted in. The ALPA apologists must keep distorting and changing their argument...because defending ALPA in its current form is indefensible.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Utterly strange attempt at a comparison. ALPA trying to force LCC payrates on Delta pilots? USAPA didn't force pay rates on East pilots. LCC management is doing that. East pilots are getting paid what they're paid because they're working under a contract that is years old. As tough as it is for them, they've decided it's better than giving up their seniority to the Nicolau award. This suits LCC management just fine as it allows operating under an old BK contract.

Dude, you are really inventing some odd analogies to defend your position.

Carl

Carl Spackler

I've been a little remiss in keeping up my cliche list. Here is the updated DPA cliche list from their authors:

alfaromeo:

2..Temper tantrums
1..Pitchforks and torches in hand

sink r8:

2..Slitting our wrists
1..Contractual suicide

acl65pilot:

14.Fix ALPA from within
13.Let's keep our seat at the table
12.Can you guarantee this will work?
11.Throwing grenades in the room
10.Throwing out the baby with the bath water
9.. Selling out ALPA
8.. Blindly voting
7.. Voting in anger
6.. Unintended consequences!
5.. Throwing your arms up in defeat
4.. Cutting bait and running
3.. The nuclear option
2.. Mutually assured destruction
1.. ALPA is working "behind the scenes"

TheManager

Alpha. Even more misrepresentation and clumsy attempts to discredit DPA by attempting to connect them to USAPA. Really thought you were smarter than that. I am goinng to rest on the idea that it appears you are letting emotion get a hold of you and your posting. Stop for a moment and reflect.

!. Usapa = seniority grab. That is it. Even if they don't win (toss the Nic) they win by delaying and capturing the massive attrition that they have coming up.

2. LCC and Parker want to get this rolling. They have asked for a Declaratory Judgemnet on the issue from the Fed. Courts so that they can move forward. They need a SLI and contract so they can join the merger party before it is too late and they have to cut themselves up, or, die on the vine.

In doing so, LCC is arguing that the case is "ripe."

Just this week the West pilots have filed to have the results of the arbitration and the Nicolau Award heard and argued by the Supreme Court.

ALLLL the litigation and the whole reason for USAPA is to delay and muddy the SLI process.

It is in no way related to why we are now seeing DPA or for that matter what DPA will be like in their represntation of Delta pilots.

2. "Web board warriors" are not out to get ALPA. These "warriors" are communicating as they do in the 21st century in the vacuum that is made by the DALPA MEC Communications committee members. As to the remark that these said "warriors" are out to get ALPA, well ALPA has done a good enough job to themselves in that respect.

Back in the PPA days, communication was not as it existed today. Most of us still carried beepers when on reserve so that we could be contacted by scheduling. In the 21st century we communicate differently and more effectively. Yup. Those damn web boards :O

ALPA did not follow this into the 21st. The late attempts they are making are misguided at best.

DPA appears to be on the right track when it come to communication. It remains to be seen how:

A. ALPA will respond. i.e. will they be more effective.

B. Will DPA represent and listen as they move forward with their campaign.

As a side note, I believe that as they continue to get their word out, they will gain considerable momentum.

Here is why. DALPA has been acting exclusionary during this merger. Instead of trying to unify and rally their member base after the merger, they have done largely the opposite.

Just this week Article VI's or VII's or what ever have been filed against Mr. Moak by Council 54. Handling of previous grievances that pNW pilots had is another. The list is long and it goes on.

DPA is being smart and appears to be reaching out to all Delta pilots no matter who originally hired them or what color of book that used to identify them.