Delta Pilots Association
11-11-2013, 12:59 PM
#8181
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Changey hopey, Scambo, or more appropriately, a shell game.
They can promise the moon because they do not have to make any real decisions now with any real consequences. Just like Oba-mao and Gitmo. It's all different when you assume that the guy in power is an idiot, and you have all the answers... then reality sets in. The warts need to be removed from the current situation, no doubt. I don't have those answers either, but it is a representative democracy and hopefully it will get better very shortly. We'll see. But I just cannot buy into the premise that everybody there is a crook, they are all idiots, and are sponging off the dues paying members.
7am in HND and I can't sleep.... sorry for the ramble. Guess I'll go workout.
11-11-2013, 01:15 PM
#8182
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Nope... never said that. But if golf were a 2 shot game I'd kick Tiger's ass every weekend. Hindsight is 20/20... I wanted every batter for the Cardinals to hit a homerun in the World Series, and Peyton to never throw an interception. The doughnuts indicate that they will never be sued, get every single gain there is to get every time, and all with lower dues and no agency shop. If they can guarantee me that, I'm in. Seriously. And if they cannot guarantee that, why change? What would we be getting for all this angst? Lower dues? No agency shop? And saying no to everything to prove a point, and swinging for the fences has a proven track record, one that I am pretty sure that the Delta pilots would not be very happy with.
Changey hopey, Scambo, or more appropriately, a shell game.
They can promise the moon because they do not have to make any real decisions now with any real consequences. Just like Oba-mao and Gitmo. It's all different when you assume that the guy in power is an idiot, and you have all the answers... then reality sets in. The warts need to be removed from the current situation, no doubt. I don't have those answers either, but it is a representative democracy and hopefully it will get better very shortly. We'll see. But I just cannot buy into the premise that everybody there is a crook, they are all idiots, and are sponging off the dues paying members.
7am in HND and I can't sleep.... sorry for the ramble. Guess I'll go workout.
Changey hopey, Scambo, or more appropriately, a shell game.
They can promise the moon because they do not have to make any real decisions now with any real consequences. Just like Oba-mao and Gitmo. It's all different when you assume that the guy in power is an idiot, and you have all the answers... then reality sets in. The warts need to be removed from the current situation, no doubt. I don't have those answers either, but it is a representative democracy and hopefully it will get better very shortly. We'll see. But I just cannot buy into the premise that everybody there is a crook, they are all idiots, and are sponging off the dues paying members.
7am in HND and I can't sleep.... sorry for the ramble. Guess I'll go workout.
11-11-2013, 01:23 PM
#8183
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
11-11-2013, 01:31 PM
#8184
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
11-11-2013, 03:10 PM
#8185
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Just for the record, slowplay is angling every way known to man to be our next MEC chairman. He'll need all 10 of the reps who voted to oust Roberts to squeak by with a 10-9 vote however. I don't think he'll get it...but you never know.
Carl
Carl
11-11-2013, 04:51 PM
#8186
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Nope... never said that. But if golf were a 2 shot game I'd kick Tiger's ass every weekend. Hindsight is 20/20... I wanted every batter for the Cardinals to hit a homerun in the World Series, and Peyton to never throw an interception. The doughnuts indicate that they will never be sued, get every single gain there is to get every time, and all with lower dues and no agency shop. If they can guarantee me that, I'm in. Seriously. And if they cannot guarantee that, why change? What would we be getting for all this angst? Lower dues? No agency shop? And saying no to everything to prove a point, and swinging for the fences has a proven track record, one that I am pretty sure that the Delta pilots would not be very happy with.
Changey hopey, Scambo, or more appropriately, a shell game.
They can promise the moon because they do not have to make any real decisions now with any real consequences. Just like Oba-mao and Gitmo. It's all different when you assume that the guy in power is an idiot, and you have all the answers... then reality sets in. The warts need to be removed from the current situation, no doubt. I don't have those answers either, but it is a representative democracy and hopefully it will get better very shortly. We'll see. But I just cannot buy into the premise that everybody there is a crook, they are all idiots, and are sponging off the dues paying members.
7am in HND and I can't sleep.... sorry for the ramble. Guess I'll go workout.
Changey hopey, Scambo, or more appropriately, a shell game.
They can promise the moon because they do not have to make any real decisions now with any real consequences. Just like Oba-mao and Gitmo. It's all different when you assume that the guy in power is an idiot, and you have all the answers... then reality sets in. The warts need to be removed from the current situation, no doubt. I don't have those answers either, but it is a representative democracy and hopefully it will get better very shortly. We'll see. But I just cannot buy into the premise that everybody there is a crook, they are all idiots, and are sponging off the dues paying members.
7am in HND and I can't sleep.... sorry for the ramble. Guess I'll go workout.
Why does everything have to be one extreme or the other with you (not just you, but a lot of DALPA aficionados)? It's either proactive appeasement or it's all out war. Did you ever consider that there could be a middle ground? Did you ever consider that it's possible to stand up for what's right and be assertive, without dropping a nuclear bomb? Did you ever consider that management might respect us more if they saw that we respect ourselves?
Hope the workout cleared your head!
11-11-2013, 04:56 PM
#8187
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Where do you get this stuff?! You've got DPA making all kinds of promises that I've never seen. (I haven't seen ANY promises from DPA.) "Saying no to everything" "Swinging for the fences" All mischaracterizations... apparently an attempt by you to shed a negative light on DPA.
Why does everything have to be one extreme or the other with you (not just you, but a lot of DALPA aficionados)? It's either proactive appeasement or it's all out war. Did you ever consider that there could be a middle ground? Did you ever consider that it's possible to stand up for what's right and be assertive, without dropping a nuclear bomb? Did you ever consider that management might respect us more if they saw that we respect ourselves?
Hope the workout cleared your head!
Why does everything have to be one extreme or the other with you (not just you, but a lot of DALPA aficionados)? It's either proactive appeasement or it's all out war. Did you ever consider that there could be a middle ground? Did you ever consider that it's possible to stand up for what's right and be assertive, without dropping a nuclear bomb? Did you ever consider that management might respect us more if they saw that we respect ourselves?
Hope the workout cleared your head!
So then will the DPA will be making some sort of concessions now and again? Well how do I know that they will be any more acceptable than the ones that dALPA has to make now and again? Because Caplinger says so? I think the nuclear bomb to which you refer is a change of representation, and I have seen absolutely nothing from them that could change that opinion. Except a lower dues rate. But what about that agency shop thing?
11-11-2013, 05:13 PM
#8188
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Yes I feel much better, thanks
So then will the DPA will be making some sort of concessions now and again? Well how do I know that they will be any more acceptable than the ones that dALPA has to make now and again? Because Caplinger says so? I think the nuclear bomb to which you refer is a change of representation, and I have seen absolutely nothing from them that could change that opinion. Except a lower dues rate. But what about that agency shop thing?
So then will the DPA will be making some sort of concessions now and again? Well how do I know that they will be any more acceptable than the ones that dALPA has to make now and again? Because Caplinger says so? I think the nuclear bomb to which you refer is a change of representation, and I have seen absolutely nothing from them that could change that opinion. Except a lower dues rate. But what about that agency shop thing?
Of course there's always going to be give and take. That's just life. The problem is that, on the "give and take ledger", we've done WAY more giving than taking. It's time to even it out more. And we've got a lot of evening out to do! We took a 42% cumulative pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. A 42% cut requires a 73% increase on day one just to get back to square one. I know you are tired of my broken record on that... but it is A FACT. And a fact we simply cannot afford to ignore if we are going to restore this profession and put our careers back on track. DALPA has been ignoring this fact (even doing everything they can to distract us from it) for way too long. IMO, that has done tremendous damage to our prospects for restoration.
I don't know exactly what DPA will or will not do. I suppose that is to be determined once they become our representative and the process begins of taking input, developing an objective, and then developing specific plans and strategies to achieve the objective. It will be a difficult, uphill battle... especially given the lower expectations that DALPA has allowed to be set for management and for many in our pilot group. It will take being very clear to all concerned that we do not accept bankruptcy as a reset and that we expect to get our profession and our careers back on track. It will most likely take some assertiveness on our part. We will have to earn back the respect of management, after spending almost a decade losing it by demonstrating that we don't really respect ourselves and our profession that much.
11-11-2013, 05:53 PM
#8189
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
No. That is not what I was referring to. I was talking strategy... proactive appeasement (that's what I like to call DALPA's approach over the past 8 years) or nuclear bomb (the burn the house down just because you're ****ed mentality). IMO, neither of those are going to get us where we need to be. The first one has been tried for 8 years, and we're currently 32%+ BELOW the buying power we had before we took that draconian 32.5% pay cut almost a decade ago! UNSAT. The second approach (burn the house down) is just stupid... akin to shooting oneself in the foot.
Of course there's always going to be give and take. That's just life. The problem is that, on the "give and take ledger", we've done WAY more giving than taking. It's time to even it out more. And we've got a lot of evening out to do! We took a 42% cumulative pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. A 42% cut requires a 73% increase on day one just to get back to square one. I know you are tired of my broken record on that... but it is A FACT. And a fact we simply cannot afford to ignore if we are going to restore this profession and put our careers back on track. DALPA has been ignoring this fact (even doing everything they can to distract us from it) for way too long. IMO, that has done tremendous damage to our prospects for restoration.
I don't know exactly what DPA will or will not do. I suppose that is to be determined once they become our representative and the process begins of taking input, developing an objective, and then developing specific plans and strategies to achieve the objective. It will be a difficult, uphill battle... especially given the lower expectations that DALPA has allowed to be set for management and for many in our pilot group. It will take being very clear to all concerned that we do not accept bankruptcy as a reset and that we expect to get our profession and our careers back on track. It will most likely take some assertiveness on our part. We will have to earn back the respect of management, after spending almost a decade losing it by demonstrating that we don't really respect ourselves and our profession that much.
Of course there's always going to be give and take. That's just life. The problem is that, on the "give and take ledger", we've done WAY more giving than taking. It's time to even it out more. And we've got a lot of evening out to do! We took a 42% cumulative pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. A 42% cut requires a 73% increase on day one just to get back to square one. I know you are tired of my broken record on that... but it is A FACT. And a fact we simply cannot afford to ignore if we are going to restore this profession and put our careers back on track. DALPA has been ignoring this fact (even doing everything they can to distract us from it) for way too long. IMO, that has done tremendous damage to our prospects for restoration.
I don't know exactly what DPA will or will not do. I suppose that is to be determined once they become our representative and the process begins of taking input, developing an objective, and then developing specific plans and strategies to achieve the objective. It will be a difficult, uphill battle... especially given the lower expectations that DALPA has allowed to be set for management and for many in our pilot group. It will take being very clear to all concerned that we do not accept bankruptcy as a reset and that we expect to get our profession and our careers back on track. It will most likely take some assertiveness on our part. We will have to earn back the respect of management, after spending almost a decade losing it by demonstrating that we don't really respect ourselves and our profession that much.
11-11-2013, 06:02 PM
#8190
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
I agree with a lot of what you say but what I have trouble with is; of the carriers that went through bankruptcy who has led the pack ? DALPA has consistently got us the best wages, work rules, stock, and post bankruptcy payouts. That it isn't enough or they should have gotten more is a point I understand but to say they failed when they have led the the pack by a considerable margin is just wrong.
If it's pursuing the objective of restoring our profession and putting our careers back on track, then they've been a miserable failure... essentially sustaining the 32.5% pay cut we took almost a decade ago in an extreme emergency! Yeah, DALPA's set the bar for formerly bankrupt carriers. And that's part of the problem IMO... They've set a bar that essentially says we agree that we're not worth what we used to be and that we don't expect restoration. I think a good case could be made that we (DALPA) have screwed the pooch for the entire profession by demonstrating acceptance of bankruptcy as a new baseline from which we only expect "reasonable" improvements going forward. Imagine how much better everybody else might be doing if we had set a higher bar...
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