Originally Posted by Sink r8

Carl can't help but overreach. There are plenty of people that cruise these boards to sell a product, and Carl is probably the most prolific.

I think he's found a case of ALPA guys getting caught in a sketchy endeavor, and right after he cleans up the mess in his shorts, he's going to milk this for all it's worth, on two threads. You can't really blame him, he's got no actual message about the product he's trying to sell.

It may actually be that Carl is truly motivated by what's best for the group. I often wonder whether Carl actually believes what he sells, but considering he's one week attacking Roberts on the scourge effort to help DPA, and one week defending him to help friends against the recall effort, there is no way to tell.

Just hang on while he targets you as an apologist. He will move on to the next person that doesn't pray at his self-absorbed altar soon enough. Right now, he seems to have a point about the four in C108 grossly overreaching, and he's able to ride the letter of a rep that actually seems well-intentioned. He's like a dog finally thrown a bone, and he's got to chew. It's not often that he can ride someone else's issue, and look like he actually has a legitimate point.

Seems like we have a couple of guys demonstrating very poor judgment within ALPA, and revealing a paternalistic streak that looks very out of touch. I don't know this Ryan guy, but it seems as though they picked on the wrong person. Three wrongs don't make a right: the ridiculous actions of one faction, or the irrational behavior of the want-to-be's, don't justify heavy-handed actions by the union I support. C108 will decide whether or not to repudiate their actions, but it doesn't look good from afar.

Originally Posted by Hawaii50

The only agenda spewing thugs I see here though are you, Purple, and couple other DPA guys.

Originally Posted by Hawaii50

Having experienced both sides I do know what I'm talking about. Your very specific seniority group being probably the worst offenders and that goes back a long way.

Originally Posted by Hawaii50

I know anyone who doesn't agree with you is a thug. The only agenda spewing thugs I see here though are you, Purple, and couple other DPA guys. A few guys have the sac to call you out and you can't stand it. Your used to running roughshod over your fellow pilots. Hard habit to break I guess.

Originally Posted by Hawaii50

Cheers Bud and thanks. My only agenda is to make it off this 4-day. You have much more knowledge than I do and I enjoy reading your posts. I just get a little tired of his character assassination of the good guys on this board who don't happen to agree with him.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Kingsley Roberts testified at the recall meeting that the letter was created by ALPA national. Including the word "scourge." He ultimately signed and sent the letter...and took responsibility for it. But every word was written by ALPA national. Every word.

Carl

Originally Posted by TheManager

Easy. First SWAPA . They obviously never entered BK. They did not hand over their retirement as we did and never took the haircut in work rules and compensation as we did.

Pointing to them and saying that this is a sound strategy is disingenuous. Apples to oranges.

After contract C2K, SWAPA was aggressively agitating for like compensation on their next contract. 9/11 happened and they stayed with the incremental gains.

Originally Posted by TheManager

We were able to get C2K directly because of 3b6.

We gave that away in c2k. For that reason, but primarily due to work rule changes, changes to reserve, and pbs, I voted no. Sure the $$$ was fantastic. But being relatively junior then, the work rules impacted my young family more profoundly than the $$$ enhanced it. Remember, current pay rates did not impact retirement then unless you were in your final 3 years.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

We know from the MEC recall meeting that the letter was written entirely by ALPA national. Try to stay on subject if you can. It may have been Kingsley's fault for signing and sending ALPA national's "scourge" letter, but ALPA national wrote the "scourge" letter. Every word of it.

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

You're deflecting the topic. I don't doubt you saw what you saw, but that has nothing to do with who instigated the fight against DPA. It was Lee Moak. Lee Moak demanded that something be done immediately about the DPA because Lee Moak thought DALPA was doing nothing. Moak's demand is what started the Special Committee (Secret Police).

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Bump to this post with my highlights:

-------------------------------

The Fork in the Road

Fellow Pilots of Council 108,

I am writing you today to discuss the very difficult place we find ourselves. We have arrived at a fork in the road and must choose one of two paths in which to go down. It would be nice if we could split the difference, but it appears that option has been taken from us.

Yesterday, I received a letter that was sent out to only a select number of pilots in Council 108. Tim O’Malley, Jerry Timmerman, Don Wykoff, and Rich Harwood signed the letter. In a writing style similar to that of Buzz Hazzard, it tries to paint the picture that I am a radical, one who only votes “No,” and one who prefers a strategy of “torches and pitchforks.” It suggests that I want to abandon constructive engagement in favor of taking a hard line. I went back and reread my perspectives to the council. I am at a loss for how anyone could come to these conclusions unless they had an underhanded motive to remove me as your representative for their political gain.

The letter paints a very rosy picture of the recall. It tries to show any reasonable MEC member as having no other option than to vote for the recall of Kingsley Roberts, despite the fact that the initial vote was virtually tied at 10-9. They also fail to paint the behind the scenes activity that occurred which was akin to a conspiracy. The letter also fails to recognize the fact that when Tim O’Malley left office, the DPA had over 5,000 members, a failure of O’Malley’s leadership, not Roberts’.

Recognize that much of what I am about to communicate is my opinion based on my observations being a member of the MEC. The recall efforts began the day Kingsley Roberts won the election for MEC Chairman. The O’Malley supporters gathered together to make sure Robert Hazzard (Buzz) got elected in Council 108. They did not fight me as they thought I was one of them since I performed committee work and got very favorable reviews from the Committee Chairman I worked under. In the first hour of the first meeting of this new MEC, Buzz and Randy Worrall of council 81 called for an Executive Session. While I can’t discuss the content of that session, it was an attempt to build the case to recall King but ultimately failed. There was much discussion in the hospitality suite at the Seattle meeting about recalling King, but it failed to launch as well.

In September Buzz invited my wife, our son, and me over to his home to watch a baseball game. The other invitees were Tim O’Malley, Brenier Fries, Rich Harwood, Don Wykoff and their wives. Tim and Bren were unable to attend, but Rich and Don were there. I was suspicious going into this social event as all of these men had tried to sway my opinion and lean on me in the past. My suspicions were**confirmed as I quickly realized this social evening was a way for them to feel me out for what they had in mind; recalling Kingsley.

The first week in October, Buzz and his team started the process of recalling King. My own independent research of the matter showed me quite clearly that this was a well-organized and choreographed attack on Kingsley Roberts. It was clear that the team was speaking from the same talking points as they were saying the exact same things, word for word. Buzz hosted a conference call, referred to by some as clandestine, made up of those who had committed to the recall and those he was trying to get on board. I was the latter. It was quite an eye opening look at how this group works, or perhaps schemes, to achieve their goals. Despite this, I tried to work with other MEC members and King to stop the recall and get back to work. This effort failed. Once the letters went in calling for the recalls, Buzz’s co-conspirators started calling and emailing me. They yelled, threw insults, and Jerry Timmerman, Buzz’s Vice-Chairman on the Communications Committee, threatened me with recall two days before the recall meeting.

When the recall meeting started, I asked a few simple questions that seemed to be non-threatening. My point was to establish a baseline of whether we were going to get the truth or lies. Unfortunately, I was hearing statements I knew to be lies. The baseline was set for what would be a two day kangaroo court, in which nobody swore an oath to tell the truth. The co-conspirators in the MEC asked many a slanted question of the witnesses. Randy Worrell, Armando Gomez, Boyd Kelly, Brian Shinnick, and Buzz Hazzard participated in questioning of many while repeatedly denying King the chance to tell his side of the story or defend his actions. At the end of the 11 hours, I gave him that chance but by then the damage was done.

Earlier I mentioned the fork in the road. Our entire pilot group is facing this fork. We need to make the decision whether we are going to continue going down the path of electing a group that uses Chicago- style political tactics while ignoring a very large segment of the pilot group, or if we are going to get back to the original design of bottom up and membership-led representation. We also need reps who want to listen to our pilot group. Buzz has told me many times that he thinks lounge visits are a waste of time and even fought Kingsley Roberts when he introduced the program. I cherish the lounge visits and the opportunity to talk one on one and listen to your concerns. Perhaps Buzz knows better.

Finally, the letter forwarded to me yesterday suggested writing in John Wolf. I like John and thank him for stepping up to the plate. Two days prior to our October LEC meeting, Tony Gerst expressed he was willing to serve, but didn’t really want to. Buzz reached out to John and asked him if he would run for that position. He said yes. I nominated him along with many others. I have no hard feelings toward John for the write in suggestion yesterday. I think that he is being used as a pawn to snuff out the independent thought that I offer. They will push him to follow orders and vote as they say or they will find a way to push him out as they are trying with me. I see this as a dastardly act toward John.

In summary, the choice is yours. Do you want independent reps that vote according to your direction as members, or do you want reps that will do what the old regime wants and bully others to fall in line? I seek independent thought. I voted for Buzz in the last election. After seeing how he operates, I no longer support him as our representative. Silas Hart is not running in this election, but when asked has said that he is willing to serve if our council elects him via write in. I have written Silas in and fully endorse him for Captain Rep. His ALPA number is 0614461.

Thanks for your attention and I ask for your vote. A vote for Ryan Schnitzler is a vote for independence, strength, and loyalty to the membership, not a regime. I have copied yesterday’s letter for your own analysis.

Ryan

------------------------------

For the ALPA apologists here, I ask you: How much longer can you continue the talking points that DALPA is a bottom up organization?

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Bump to this post with my highlights:

-------------------------------

The Fork in the Road

Fellow Pilots of Council 108,

I am writing you today to discuss the very difficult place we find ourselves. We have arrived at a fork in the road and must choose one of two paths in which to go down. It would be nice if we could split the difference, but it appears that option has been taken from us.

Yesterday, I received a letter that was sent out to only a select number of pilots in Council 108. Tim O’Malley, Jerry Timmerman, Don Wykoff, and Rich Harwood signed the letter. In a writing style similar to that of Buzz Hazzard, it tries to paint the picture that I am a radical, one who only votes “No,” and one who prefers a strategy of “torches and pitchforks.” It suggests that I want to abandon constructive engagement in favor of taking a hard line. I went back and reread my perspectives to the council. I am at a loss for how anyone could come to these conclusions unless they had an underhanded motive to remove me as your representative for their political gain.

The letter paints a very rosy picture of the recall. It tries to show any reasonable MEC member as having no other option than to vote for the recall of Kingsley Roberts, despite the fact that the initial vote was virtually tied at 10-9. They also fail to paint the behind the scenes activity that occurred which was akin to a conspiracy. The letter also fails to recognize the fact that when Tim O’Malley left office, the DPA had over 5,000 members, a failure of O’Malley’s leadership, not Roberts’.

Recognize that much of what I am about to communicate is my opinion based on my observations being a member of the MEC. The recall efforts began the day Kingsley Roberts won the election for MEC Chairman. The O’Malley supporters gathered together to make sure Robert Hazzard (Buzz) got elected in Council 108. They did not fight me as they thought I was one of them since I performed committee work and got very favorable reviews from the Committee Chairman I worked under. In the first hour of the first meeting of this new MEC, Buzz and Randy Worrall of council 81 called for an Executive Session. While I can’t discuss the content of that session, it was an attempt to build the case to recall King but ultimately failed. There was much discussion in the hospitality suite at the Seattle meeting about recalling King, but it failed to launch as well.

In September Buzz invited my wife, our son, and me over to his home to watch a baseball game. The other invitees were Tim O’Malley, Brenier Fries, Rich Harwood, Don Wykoff and their wives. Tim and Bren were unable to attend, but Rich and Don were there. I was suspicious going into this social event as all of these men had tried to sway my opinion and lean on me in the past. My suspicions were**confirmed as I quickly realized this social evening was a way for them to feel me out for what they had in mind; recalling Kingsley.

The first week in October, Buzz and his team started the process of recalling King. My own independent research of the matter showed me quite clearly that this was a well-organized and choreographed attack on Kingsley Roberts. It was clear that the team was speaking from the same talking points as they were saying the exact same things, word for word. Buzz hosted a conference call, referred to by some as clandestine, made up of those who had committed to the recall and those he was trying to get on board. I was the latter. It was quite an eye opening look at how this group works, or perhaps schemes, to achieve their goals. Despite this, I tried to work with other MEC members and King to stop the recall and get back to work. This effort failed. Once the letters went in calling for the recalls, Buzz’s co-conspirators started calling and emailing me. They yelled, threw insults, and Jerry Timmerman, Buzz’s Vice-Chairman on the Communications Committee, threatened me with recall two days before the recall meeting.

When the recall meeting started, I asked a few simple questions that seemed to be non-threatening. My point was to establish a baseline of whether we were going to get the truth or lies. Unfortunately, I was hearing statements I knew to be lies. The baseline was set for what would be a two day kangaroo court, in which nobody swore an oath to tell the truth. The co-conspirators in the MEC asked many a slanted question of the witnesses. Randy Worrell, Armando Gomez, Boyd Kelly, Brian Shinnick, and Buzz Hazzard participated in questioning of many while repeatedly denying King the chance to tell his side of the story or defend his actions. At the end of the 11 hours, I gave him that chance but by then the damage was done.

Earlier I mentioned the fork in the road. Our entire pilot group is facing this fork. We need to make the decision whether we are going to continue going down the path of electing a group that uses Chicago- style political tactics while ignoring a very large segment of the pilot group, or if we are going to get back to the original design of bottom up and membership-led representation. We also need reps who want to listen to our pilot group. Buzz has told me many times that he thinks lounge visits are a waste of time and even fought Kingsley Roberts when he introduced the program. I cherish the lounge visits and the opportunity to talk one on one and listen to your concerns. Perhaps Buzz knows better.

Finally, the letter forwarded to me yesterday suggested writing in John Wolf. I like John and thank him for stepping up to the plate. Two days prior to our October LEC meeting, Tony Gerst expressed he was willing to serve, but didn’t really want to. Buzz reached out to John and asked him if he would run for that position. He said yes. I nominated him along with many others. I have no hard feelings toward John for the write in suggestion yesterday. I think that he is being used as a pawn to snuff out the independent thought that I offer. They will push him to follow orders and vote as they say or they will find a way to push him out as they are trying with me. I see this as a dastardly act toward John.

In summary, the choice is yours. Do you want independent reps that vote according to your direction as members, or do you want reps that will do what the old regime wants and bully others to fall in line? I seek independent thought. I voted for Buzz in the last election. After seeing how he operates, I no longer support him as our representative. Silas Hart is not running in this election, but when asked has said that he is willing to serve if our council elects him via write in. I have written Silas in and fully endorse him for Captain Rep. His ALPA number is 0614461.

Thanks for your attention and I ask for your vote. A vote for Ryan Schnitzler is a vote for independence, strength, and loyalty to the membership, not a regime. I have copied yesterday’s letter for your own analysis.

Ryan

------------------------------

For the ALPA apologists here, I ask you: How much longer can you continue the talking points that DALPA is a bottom up organization?

Carl