Delta Pilots Association
11-06-2013, 02:35 PM
#8112
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Now you're trying to deflect because you don't like the answer. Yes , SWA pilots have been surpassing Delta pilots' earnings for decades now. And since all of their pilots make the top dollar (as opposed to Delta pilots where only the small percentage of 747/777pilots make the top dollar), the level of surpassing is even more stark.
Instead? My goodness are you blind. SWA, UPS and FDX are extremely healthy employers.
Carl
11-06-2013, 02:44 PM
#8113
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
11-06-2013, 02:49 PM
#8114
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Now you're trying to deflect because you don't like the answer. Yes , SWA pilots have been surpassing Delta pilots' earnings for decades now. And since all of their pilots make the top dollar (as opposed to Delta pilots where only the small percentage of 747/777pilots make the top dollar), the level of surpassing is even more stark.
Nope. I'm not blind. I'm not blinded by anger or misperceptions at all.
11-06-2013, 03:17 PM
#8115
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
DALPA talks about time value of money.
I don't know anyone who has actually laid the SWA compensation of the 80's 'til today - actual W-2 earnings - on a scale of years with SWA, including upgrade time, next to the equivalent at Delta. Until this is done using verifiable numbers, nobody can make a blanket statement that SWA pilots undercut anybody...or that they didn't. However, due to their initial rapid upgrades, my bet is that TVM was in favor of SWA.
Everybody can look up SWA's stated rates. That isn't now, and wasn't in the past, the whole story. Their work rules are different. They don't pay by the minute (which rewards safety) They pay by the "trip" (which rewards efficiency). They have liberal time +1/2 and doubletime rules which rapidly skyrocket their pay without requiring a minimum number of hours to get there.
Today's reality:
-We can't turn 1 week of vacation into 3.
-We build our own retirements.
-We have had initial employment promises broken.
-We outsource a ton of flying.
The difference between DALPA/ALPA and SWAPA is that SWAPA fights to KEEP the flying in-house and KEEP the contract benefits intact. SWAPA especially defends their section 1, they don't monetize it.
No one is saying everything our union does is bad. There has been a lot of good. Nobody disputes that new hires at SWA are going to be stagnant for years compared to previously.
+4833
I don't know anyone who has actually laid the SWA compensation of the 80's 'til today - actual W-2 earnings - on a scale of years with SWA, including upgrade time, next to the equivalent at Delta. Until this is done using verifiable numbers, nobody can make a blanket statement that SWA pilots undercut anybody...or that they didn't. However, due to their initial rapid upgrades, my bet is that TVM was in favor of SWA.
Everybody can look up SWA's stated rates. That isn't now, and wasn't in the past, the whole story. Their work rules are different. They don't pay by the minute (which rewards safety) They pay by the "trip" (which rewards efficiency). They have liberal time +1/2 and doubletime rules which rapidly skyrocket their pay without requiring a minimum number of hours to get there.
Today's reality:
-We can't turn 1 week of vacation into 3.
-We build our own retirements.
-We have had initial employment promises broken.
-We outsource a ton of flying.
The difference between DALPA/ALPA and SWAPA is that SWAPA fights to KEEP the flying in-house and KEEP the contract benefits intact. SWAPA especially defends their section 1, they don't monetize it.
No one is saying everything our union does is bad. There has been a lot of good. Nobody disputes that new hires at SWA are going to be stagnant for years compared to previously.
+4833
Carl
11-06-2013, 03:25 PM
#8116
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
11-06-2013, 03:31 PM
#8117
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You're making this up. Didn't happen. I watched, with my own eyes, the Delta MEC unanimously approve the plan that is currently being undertaken.
Lee Moak may be a Delta pilot, but he does not tell the Delta pilots what to do.
Do you think DALPA should continue to sit back and watch you guys spread discontent amongst our ranks? We have many faults, but I'd prefer the pilot group be influenced by reality and not Tim's 20 minute youtube video of, how did Bar put it? Hakuna Matata?
OUR elected reps decided enough was enough, and chose to engage rather than sit idly by as the truth was warped against us - to the potential detriment of this pilot group. Simple as that.
Lee Moak may be a Delta pilot, but he does not tell the Delta pilots what to do.
Do you think DALPA should continue to sit back and watch you guys spread discontent amongst our ranks? We have many faults, but I'd prefer the pilot group be influenced by reality and not Tim's 20 minute youtube video of, how did Bar put it? Hakuna Matata?
OUR elected reps decided enough was enough, and chose to engage rather than sit idly by as the truth was warped against us - to the potential detriment of this pilot group. Simple as that.
Carl
11-06-2013, 03:34 PM
#8118
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Better lower your BS flag to reduce further embarrassment. Just try not to get any BS on your Pom Poms.
Carl
11-06-2013, 03:43 PM
#8119
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
11-06-2013, 03:46 PM
#8120
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Bump to this post with my highlights:
-------------------------------
The Fork in the Road
Fellow Pilots of Council 108,
I am writing you today to discuss the very difficult place we find ourselves. We have arrived at a fork in the road and must choose one of two paths in which to go down. It would be nice if we could split the difference, but it appears that option has been taken from us.
Yesterday, I received a letter that was sent out to only a select number of pilots in Council 108. Tim O’Malley, Jerry Timmerman, Don Wykoff, and Rich Harwood signed the letter. In a writing style similar to that of Buzz Hazzard, it tries to paint the picture that I am a radical, one who only votes “No,” and one who prefers a strategy of “torches and pitchforks.” It suggests that I want to abandon constructive engagement in favor of taking a hard line. I went back and reread my perspectives to the council. I am at a loss for how anyone could come to these conclusions unless they had an underhanded motive to remove me as your representative for their political gain.
The letter paints a very rosy picture of the recall. It tries to show any reasonable MEC member as having no other option than to vote for the recall of Kingsley Roberts, despite the fact that the initial vote was virtually tied at 10-9. They also fail to paint the behind the scenes activity that occurred which was akin to a conspiracy. The letter also fails to recognize the fact that when Tim O’Malley left office, the DPA had over 5,000 members, a failure of O’Malley’s leadership, not Roberts’.
Recognize that much of what I am about to communicate is my opinion based on my observations being a member of the MEC. The recall efforts began the day Kingsley Roberts won the election for MEC Chairman. The O’Malley supporters gathered together to make sure Robert Hazzard (Buzz) got elected in Council 108. They did not fight me as they thought I was one of them since I performed committee work and got very favorable reviews from the Committee Chairman I worked under. In the first hour of the first meeting of this new MEC, Buzz and Randy Worrall of council 81 called for an Executive Session. While I can’t discuss the content of that session, it was an attempt to build the case to recall King but ultimately failed. There was much discussion in the hospitality suite at the Seattle meeting about recalling King, but it failed to launch as well.
In September Buzz invited my wife, our son, and me over to his home to watch a baseball game. The other invitees were Tim O’Malley, Brenier Fries, Rich Harwood, Don Wykoff and their wives. Tim and Bren were unable to attend, but Rich and Don were there. I was suspicious going into this social event as all of these men had tried to sway my opinion and lean on me in the past. My suspicions were**confirmed as I quickly realized this social evening was a way for them to feel me out for what they had in mind; recalling Kingsley.
The first week in October, Buzz and his team started the process of recalling King. My own independent research of the matter showed me quite clearly that this was a well-organized and choreographed attack on Kingsley Roberts. It was clear that the team was speaking from the same talking points as they were saying the exact same things, word for word. Buzz hosted a conference call, referred to by some as clandestine, made up of those who had committed to the recall and those he was trying to get on board. I was the latter. It was quite an eye opening look at how this group works, or perhaps schemes, to achieve their goals. Despite this, I tried to work with other MEC members and King to stop the recall and get back to work. This effort failed. Once the letters went in calling for the recalls, Buzz’s co-conspirators started calling and emailing me. They yelled, threw insults, and Jerry Timmerman, Buzz’s Vice-Chairman on the Communications Committee, threatened me with recall two days before the recall meeting.
When the recall meeting started, I asked a few simple questions that seemed to be non-threatening. My point was to establish a baseline of whether we were going to get the truth or lies. Unfortunately, I was hearing statements I knew to be lies. The baseline was set for what would be a two day kangaroo court, in which nobody swore an oath to tell the truth. The co-conspirators in the MEC asked many a slanted question of the witnesses. Randy Worrell, Armando Gomez, Boyd Kelly, Brian Shinnick, and Buzz Hazzard participated in questioning of many while repeatedly denying King the chance to tell his side of the story or defend his actions. At the end of the 11 hours, I gave him that chance but by then the damage was done.
Earlier I mentioned the fork in the road. Our entire pilot group is facing this fork. We need to make the decision whether we are going to continue going down the path of electing a group that uses Chicago- style political tactics while ignoring a very large segment of the pilot group, or if we are going to get back to the original design of bottom up and membership-led representation. We also need reps who want to listen to our pilot group. Buzz has told me many times that he thinks lounge visits are a waste of time and even fought Kingsley Roberts when he introduced the program. I cherish the lounge visits and the opportunity to talk one on one and listen to your concerns. Perhaps Buzz knows better.
Finally, the letter forwarded to me yesterday suggested writing in John Wolf. I like John and thank him for stepping up to the plate. Two days prior to our October LEC meeting, Tony Gerst expressed he was willing to serve, but didn’t really want to. Buzz reached out to John and asked him if he would run for that position. He said yes. I nominated him along with many others. I have no hard feelings toward John for the write in suggestion yesterday. I think that he is being used as a pawn to snuff out the independent thought that I offer. They will push him to follow orders and vote as they say or they will find a way to push him out as they are trying with me. I see this as a dastardly act toward John.
In summary, the choice is yours. Do you want independent reps that vote according to your direction as members, or do you want reps that will do what the old regime wants and bully others to fall in line? I seek independent thought. I voted for Buzz in the last election. After seeing how he operates, I no longer support him as our representative. Silas Hart is not running in this election, but when asked has said that he is willing to serve if our council elects him via write in. I have written Silas in and fully endorse him for Captain Rep. His ALPA number is 0614461.
Thanks for your attention and I ask for your vote. A vote for Ryan Schnitzler is a vote for independence, strength, and loyalty to the membership, not a regime. I have copied yesterday’s letter for your own analysis.
Ryan
------------------------------
For the ALPA apologists here, I ask you: How much longer can you continue the talking points that DALPA is a bottom up organization?
Carl
-------------------------------
The Fork in the Road
Fellow Pilots of Council 108,
I am writing you today to discuss the very difficult place we find ourselves. We have arrived at a fork in the road and must choose one of two paths in which to go down. It would be nice if we could split the difference, but it appears that option has been taken from us.
Yesterday, I received a letter that was sent out to only a select number of pilots in Council 108. Tim O’Malley, Jerry Timmerman, Don Wykoff, and Rich Harwood signed the letter. In a writing style similar to that of Buzz Hazzard, it tries to paint the picture that I am a radical, one who only votes “No,” and one who prefers a strategy of “torches and pitchforks.” It suggests that I want to abandon constructive engagement in favor of taking a hard line. I went back and reread my perspectives to the council. I am at a loss for how anyone could come to these conclusions unless they had an underhanded motive to remove me as your representative for their political gain.
The letter paints a very rosy picture of the recall. It tries to show any reasonable MEC member as having no other option than to vote for the recall of Kingsley Roberts, despite the fact that the initial vote was virtually tied at 10-9. They also fail to paint the behind the scenes activity that occurred which was akin to a conspiracy. The letter also fails to recognize the fact that when Tim O’Malley left office, the DPA had over 5,000 members, a failure of O’Malley’s leadership, not Roberts’.
Recognize that much of what I am about to communicate is my opinion based on my observations being a member of the MEC. The recall efforts began the day Kingsley Roberts won the election for MEC Chairman. The O’Malley supporters gathered together to make sure Robert Hazzard (Buzz) got elected in Council 108. They did not fight me as they thought I was one of them since I performed committee work and got very favorable reviews from the Committee Chairman I worked under. In the first hour of the first meeting of this new MEC, Buzz and Randy Worrall of council 81 called for an Executive Session. While I can’t discuss the content of that session, it was an attempt to build the case to recall King but ultimately failed. There was much discussion in the hospitality suite at the Seattle meeting about recalling King, but it failed to launch as well.
In September Buzz invited my wife, our son, and me over to his home to watch a baseball game. The other invitees were Tim O’Malley, Brenier Fries, Rich Harwood, Don Wykoff and their wives. Tim and Bren were unable to attend, but Rich and Don were there. I was suspicious going into this social event as all of these men had tried to sway my opinion and lean on me in the past. My suspicions were**confirmed as I quickly realized this social evening was a way for them to feel me out for what they had in mind; recalling Kingsley.
The first week in October, Buzz and his team started the process of recalling King. My own independent research of the matter showed me quite clearly that this was a well-organized and choreographed attack on Kingsley Roberts. It was clear that the team was speaking from the same talking points as they were saying the exact same things, word for word. Buzz hosted a conference call, referred to by some as clandestine, made up of those who had committed to the recall and those he was trying to get on board. I was the latter. It was quite an eye opening look at how this group works, or perhaps schemes, to achieve their goals. Despite this, I tried to work with other MEC members and King to stop the recall and get back to work. This effort failed. Once the letters went in calling for the recalls, Buzz’s co-conspirators started calling and emailing me. They yelled, threw insults, and Jerry Timmerman, Buzz’s Vice-Chairman on the Communications Committee, threatened me with recall two days before the recall meeting.
When the recall meeting started, I asked a few simple questions that seemed to be non-threatening. My point was to establish a baseline of whether we were going to get the truth or lies. Unfortunately, I was hearing statements I knew to be lies. The baseline was set for what would be a two day kangaroo court, in which nobody swore an oath to tell the truth. The co-conspirators in the MEC asked many a slanted question of the witnesses. Randy Worrell, Armando Gomez, Boyd Kelly, Brian Shinnick, and Buzz Hazzard participated in questioning of many while repeatedly denying King the chance to tell his side of the story or defend his actions. At the end of the 11 hours, I gave him that chance but by then the damage was done.
Earlier I mentioned the fork in the road. Our entire pilot group is facing this fork. We need to make the decision whether we are going to continue going down the path of electing a group that uses Chicago- style political tactics while ignoring a very large segment of the pilot group, or if we are going to get back to the original design of bottom up and membership-led representation. We also need reps who want to listen to our pilot group. Buzz has told me many times that he thinks lounge visits are a waste of time and even fought Kingsley Roberts when he introduced the program. I cherish the lounge visits and the opportunity to talk one on one and listen to your concerns. Perhaps Buzz knows better.
Finally, the letter forwarded to me yesterday suggested writing in John Wolf. I like John and thank him for stepping up to the plate. Two days prior to our October LEC meeting, Tony Gerst expressed he was willing to serve, but didn’t really want to. Buzz reached out to John and asked him if he would run for that position. He said yes. I nominated him along with many others. I have no hard feelings toward John for the write in suggestion yesterday. I think that he is being used as a pawn to snuff out the independent thought that I offer. They will push him to follow orders and vote as they say or they will find a way to push him out as they are trying with me. I see this as a dastardly act toward John.
In summary, the choice is yours. Do you want independent reps that vote according to your direction as members, or do you want reps that will do what the old regime wants and bully others to fall in line? I seek independent thought. I voted for Buzz in the last election. After seeing how he operates, I no longer support him as our representative. Silas Hart is not running in this election, but when asked has said that he is willing to serve if our council elects him via write in. I have written Silas in and fully endorse him for Captain Rep. His ALPA number is 0614461.
Thanks for your attention and I ask for your vote. A vote for Ryan Schnitzler is a vote for independence, strength, and loyalty to the membership, not a regime. I have copied yesterday’s letter for your own analysis.
Ryan
------------------------------
For the ALPA apologists here, I ask you: How much longer can you continue the talking points that DALPA is a bottom up organization?
Carl
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