Originally Posted by johnso29

DPA will NOT be immune from lawsuits.

Originally Posted by johnso29

Do SWA pilots make more? On a guarantee basis with DC included? Or are you just using the guys that fly their butts off as an example?

UPS pilots may make more. But there are currently pilots on furlough because there is no limit on how much management pilots can fly. So guess who's picking up the slack with guys on the street? Nice to see you promote unity though.

FedEx guys have blended rates. Borderline LGBP. Is that what you want?

What's the exchange rate right now? How about taxes? Are you certain AF/KLM pilots make more? And how's the health of the company? I believe they're laying off 5000 employees? Parking WBs?

I'll take a healthy employer instead.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

To play devil's advocate, because your post just invites it:




Because they never took an attitude of "burn the house down until we get the moon and then some." Their attitude was always "work hard, play hard, be happy with reasonable compensation that built up modestly every year."



Because they never HAD traditional retirement to begin with! It is easy for a company to avoid filing for BK so as to avoid paying crippling DB payouts...when the company never had a DB to fund in the first place!



Sure they did...for 30 f'ckin years! But as a buddy of mine at SWA once told me, while legacy pilots spent all their time figuring out how to turn one week of vacation into three weeks off, and all sorts of other ways to get paid for NOT working, SWA guys were working hard and enabling a prosperous company that could afford a decades-long string of modest, but consistent pay raises.



I disagree.



And were pretty happy to stay with said incremental gains.



Please get your facts straight. PBS wasn't even thought of until the avoid-BK LOA 46 in 2004. It had nothing to do with C2K. You claim reserve got worse with C2K? I claim it got a whole lot better, as the 12 hour long call window didn't exist until then, and ALL reserves got to sit two separate short call windows...EVERY single on call day prior to C2K.



See above. Why don't you just admit that you are a "just say no" sort who not only has never seen an agreement that he would vote yes on, but doesn't every WANT to see such an agreement. Why? Because voting NO is so much easier, and in a way almost fun.



More generic blah blah. Define "unity" please. With 4-8-3-3 you mean 13-3-3 right? After all the "4" came six months prior to the amenable date and the "8" on the date. Other pilot groups wish they had such problems.

Originally Posted by scambo1

SWA guys that make the biggest bucks aren't flying their butts off, they are taking advantage of their work rules.

Originally Posted by Gomerglideslope

Absolutely spot on...However I would not hold your breath awaiting a cogent response. The crowd that likes to gaze lovingly on the SWA compensation package and hold SWAPA up as a "real" union, refuses to acknowledge that their compensation lagged the industry for years (and they were happy to undercut industry costs as their company made profits year after year and their stock options looked like gold)...until the stock option halo faded, younger pilots weren't upgrading as quickly and they wanted "Delta dollars".

Originally Posted by scambo1

DALPA talks about time value of money.

I don't know anyone who has actually laid the SWA compensation of the 80's 'til today - actual W-2 earnings - on a scale of years with SWA, including upgrade time, next to the equivalent at Delta. Until this is done using verifiable numbers, nobody can make a blanket statement that SWA pilots undercut anybody...or that they didn't. However, due to their initial rapid upgrades, my bet is that TVM was in favor of SWA.

Everybody can look up SWA's stated rates. That isn't now, and wasn't in the past, the whole story. Their work rules are different. They don't pay by the minute (which rewards safety) They pay by the "trip" (which rewards efficiency). They have liberal time +1/2 and doubletime rules which rapidly skyrocket their pay without requiring a minimum number of hours to get there.

Today's reality:
-We can't turn 1 week of vacation into 3.
-We build our own retirements.
-We have had initial employment promises broken.
-We outsource a ton of flying.

The difference between DALPA/ALPA and SWAPA is that SWAPA fights to KEEP the flying in-house and KEEP the contract benefits intact. SWAPA especially defends their section 1, they don't monetize it.

No one is saying everything our union does is bad. There has been a lot of good. Nobody disputes that new hires at SWA are going to be stagnant for years compared to previously.

+4833

Originally Posted by Hawaii50

SWA was a bottom feeder pay-wise for so long. In fact I'd even argue their business model/hideous 10 year contract had a lot to do with the bringing down of the last generation's airline pilot lifestyle to what we have today. It's only after the dust settled that they looked around and discovered they were making more than the majors that were brought down. It certainly wasn't anything they negotiated at the time. We want to be more like them why?

Originally Posted by Gomerglideslope

refuses to acknowledge that their compensation lagged the industry for years

Originally Posted by tsquare

Do you believe that going forward, SWAPA will be able to hold fast to their currently onerous scope clause? I do not because SWA has reached a point where they are starting to need to grow internationally. If they don't, their earnings will suffer, and they will not grow. Grow or die. They cannot codeshare, and the 737 is a crappy airplane to do international. What's their solution? Just curious what you think going forward that they can do.......

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Kingsley Roberts testified at the recall meeting that the letter was created by ALPA national. Including the word "scourge." He ultimately signed and sent the letter...and took responsibility for it. But every word was written by ALPA national. Every word.

Carl