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10-06-2010, 01:54 PM

#801

tsquare

No longer cares

Joined APC: Mar 2008

Position: 767er Captain

Posts: 12,109

Quote:

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

...and of course you forget USAPA. Since they threw ALPA out things have been absolutely rosy around there. Multiple lawsuits, injunctions, massive legal bills, no contract advancement. Please let's be like them.

Are you seriously using them as any kind of comparison in this discussion?

Edit, many hours later: And to continue asking this question, how would our situation even remotely compare with that mess over at US Airways? Our groups have combined in a fairly civil matter. We have competent management at the corporation. But yeah, I can see how YOU can make that comparison....

Last edited by tsquare; 10-06-2010 at 10:56 PM.

10-06-2010, 03:16 PM

#802

dragon

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Oct 2006

Position: Dismayed

Posts: 1,598

Quote:

Originally Posted by iceman49

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon

I hope so. I want to see folks more involved or at least aware. I mentioned DPA to a couple of guys this last trip and they were going to look into it. They were sick of ALPA and wanted better representation.

If we want better representation, run or get others to run, have a good argument and vote them in.

I like your idea but as a close friend of ACL can attest, folks have tried to fix things from within unfortunately they are beaten down and assimilated by ALPA national's legal team et al.

I have no problem with DALPA. My problem is with ALPA. I see them hamstringing our guys in addition to lobbying for the regionals.

10-06-2010, 06:21 PM

#803

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy

Carl, I wish it weren't so. But it is what it is. Let me offer Exhibits A, B, C and D.

A. Participation on this webboard is about 20-30 DAL pilots
B. Participation on the DALPA forum is about 50-100 DAL pilots
C. Participation at the typical ATL LEC meeting is about 40 pilots, out of a pilot base of 4000.
D. Last time pilots complained about Wilson polling, ALPA opened up a web based survey. Despite repeated attempts, only about 1/3 even bothered to tell ALPA their views. They are either extremely happy with the status quo, or extremely apathetic. You decide.

I really hope you're not an ALPA insider PG, because what you've written here bespeaks what is so wrong from within ALPA.

Both of your alternatives are incorrect. But worse is that the third alternative doesn't even occur to you. It's not that they're extremely happy, and it's not that they're extremely apathetic. It's that they understand that ALPA is not changeable. They will use their by-laws against any attempt to reform the incredible money pot that this union has become. When you understand that a giant bureaucracy refuses to change, you don't go to their meetings or participate in their polls. Both are nothing more than pre-arranged vehicles to validate what they believe. Who wants to waste their time "participating" in such forums?

As far as the low percentage of participants, that is standard throughout industry and media. It is the silent majority. It is this "silent majority" that whacks the comfortable from behind one day. The formerly comfortable look up from the ground and say: "What the **** happened? I thought you guys were disinterested?"

I think there's a distinct possibility that it happens to ALPA.

Carl

10-06-2010, 06:31 PM

#804

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sink r8

I stand by my statement: nothing lucid about it. The only cogent point being made, by multiple people, is that ALPA representing the regionals might suggest a conflict of interest. I wouldn't have a problem with an effort to discuss that. But going to our own union does not change scope clauses, and it doesn't change the competition for our jobs.

I think the only true change an independent union does (other than weaken our position) is to help a particular bunch get in power. There are two kinds of people on this board: those that know who DPA is, and those who don't. Anyone that is not affiliated (which includes me) needs to know what Product DPA is before this goes any further. This is a basic requirement. We also need to know what the platform is, and what it wants to change, exactly. Right now, absent that information, I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone that lines up to support DPA. I have to presume they know what (and who) they're supporting. Otherwise, how can you make an informed decision about an alternative you don't fully understand?

There are some legitimate undecideds in the bunch (I don't know who is who anymore than you do), who are concerned about ALPA, and would like to see more communication, and some form of reform. I would easily fit in that camp, but oddly enough, I don't see any effort to effect any resolution within ALPA... which leads me to conclude this isn't about results, or about the issues, but who gets to be in charge. Ergo, until DPA is actually transparent, and stops using cheap populist tactics, I think the default setting remains "no". There should be huge threshold of before a de-certification effort is undertaken, so that there is a very large vote in favor. I firmly believe a new 51% union would be equivalent to contractual suicide.

I stand by my position, and for me, DPA is still at strike 2.

Of course there's no effort to offer resolutions from within to reform ALPA. It's been tried for decades, and all attempts have been beaten down. You refuse to understand the most basic premise: DPA is a vehicle for ALPA's decertification. Then comes campaigns, then comes elections. The pilots will decide who each leader of DPA is...the DPA will not make that decision.

Once ALPA is decertified, the pilots will decide the new platform, the new leadership and the new direction. But first things first...decertification.

Carl

10-06-2010, 06:39 PM

#805

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager

If you have any solid information on who is organizing this, please expand on it. I am as curious as the next person.

Some of the posters imply the folks that brought about the PPA are the ones behind DPA.

They can't give you solid information...only rumor and innuendo. That's all you have when the facts and a dismal fiscal record is so heavily against you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager

Personally, I see that as unlikely as that was a mid 90's movement. The founding fathers of that more than likely took the lump and left prior to BK.

I agree with that...highly unlikely. But even IF true, it wouldn't matter. DPA won't decide who the leaders are, the pilots will decide that.

Carl

10-06-2010, 06:50 PM

#806

Carl Spackler

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Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sink r8

I find it bothersome that people that have held power feel it necessary to regain it for murky reasons.

You have no idea if this is even the case. Your personal opinion only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager

That begs the question: how can anyone be behind DPA without knowing the people involved?

Easy. Because DPA is the vehicle to decertify ALPA if the pilots vote to do so. The people currently involved doesn't matter. They will either continue to be involved or not, depending upon the will of the pilots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager

You can be upset at ALPA all day long, but if the objective truly is to change ALPA, then why is there not a movement to change things from within as well? Where are the resolutions? Where are the people when LEC meetings take place? If this is a grass roots efforts, why is it not also evident in the absence of this DPA cause?

This again? ALPA refuses to reform. All efforts are and will always be beaten down until they are decertified. Grass roots efforts and resolutions are over. This effort is simply about counting cards. 51% or more, and ALPA is gone. Then it's a new era.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheManager

I think it's implausible that people smart enough to fly airplane are gullible enough to line up behind an alternative union, without understanding what they're getting into.

If you really are an airline pilot, it's troubling to me that your plan is doing more of the exact same thing that has never worked for decades. I wouldn't call you a name like gullible, it's just troubling that your plan is doing more of the same.

Carl

10-06-2010, 06:53 PM

#807

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by dragon

I like your idea but as a close friend of ACL can attest, folks have tried to fix things from within unfortunately they are beaten down and assimilated by ALPA national's legal team et al.

I have no problem with DALPA. My problem is with ALPA. I see them hamstringing our guys in addition to lobbying for the regionals.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This!!

Carl

10-06-2010, 08:24 PM

#808

DAWGS

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Dec 2007

Position: No to large RJs

Posts: 369

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sink r8

"Might suggest a conflict", I think the conflict is very apparent, even to a third party.

Quote:

But going to our own union does not change scope clauses, and it doesn't change the competition for our jobs.

For there to be a change, our union must believe that there is a problem. Last letter I read from our leader did not mention rj scope as a threat. And he also alluded to Delta Pilots being made whole, (pre-bankruptcy wages). A half truth. I can think of a great cliche about a half truth, but I will refrain for Carl's benefit. As far as competition for our jobs...again, our union must first state that it is a threat. I have heard nothing of the sort. I have heard that from DPA.

Quote:

I think the only true change an independent union does (other than weaken our position) is to help a particular bunch get in power.

An assumption, nothing more. The fact that you mention power makes me think you have a dog in the hunt. Do you?
The membership will elect reps.

Quote:

There are two kinds of people on this board: those that know who DPA is, and those who don't. Anyone that is not affiliated (which includes me) needs to know what Product DPA is before this goes any further. This is a basic requirement. We also need to know what the platform is, and what it wants to change, exactly. Right now, absent that information, I'm suspicious of the motives of anyone that lines up to support DPA.

Are you happy with ALPA? Really? What are you happy with? Do you like supporting a bloated national organization that doesn't represent us? Do you like reading about the nice get togethers down in Miami? Do you like that secretaries make more than FOs. Do you like that they didn't take a stand when we needed it most? Do you think they are more worried about dues or the membership? Why the weak track record on RJ scope as compared to independent unions? I could go on and on. If you are suspicious of anyone supporting DPA, then I think you will soon be a paranoid soul. And BTW, I have no prior affiliation with DPA. Can you say the same about ALPA, other than being a dues paying member?

Quote:

I have to presume they know what (and who) they're supporting. Otherwise, how can you make an informed decision about an alternative you don't fully understand?

I am fully happy with my decision to support DPA. It is us, the Delta Pilot, with no strings attached to a bloated national organization.

Quote:

There are some legitimate undecideds in the bunch (I don't know who is who anymore than you do), who are concerned about ALPA, and would like to see more communication, and some form of reform. I would easily fit in that camp, but oddly enough, I don't see any effort to effect any resolution within ALPA... which leads me to conclude this isn't about results, or about the issues, but who gets to be in charge.

Speculation. Officers will be elected. I am not near as concerned over who is running the show as much as I am wether they get it or not. DPA states the problems clearly. ALPA doesn't. Call it populist if you like, but you first have to identify the problem before you can run the checklist.

Quote:

There should be huge threshold of before a de-certification effort is undertaken, so that there is a very large vote in favor. I firmly believe a new 51% union would be equivalent to contractual suicide.

I stand by my position, and for me, DPA is still at strike 2.

Strike 2 for you, that's ok, they are rounding first for me.

10-06-2010, 09:44 PM

#809

tomgoodman

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Feb 2006

Position: 767A (Ret)

Posts: 6,248

To be announced?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

... DPA is the vehicle to decertify ALPA if the pilots vote to do so. The people currently involved doesn't matter.

Carl,

Technically, I think you're right -- they don't have to identify themselves, and it might be premature to do so right now. But as a matter of strategy, I think they will soon make an announcement. Too many pilots could take offense at being denied information they feel entitled to, and vote against DPA simply because of the perceived insult. We do have big egos.
In any event, I think the correct names will be credibly leaked before the vote, perhaps by DALPA officials. If that happens, the DPA "founding fathers" will not falsely deny their identities, since a major point of this effort is "restoration of trust".

Best of luck, whatever you guys decide.