TheManager

Easy. First SWAPA . They obviously never entered BK. They did not hand over their retirement as we did and never took the haircut in work rules and compensation as we did.

Pointing to them and saying that this is a sound strategy is disingenuous. Apples to oranges.

After contract C2K, SWAPA was aggressively agitating for like compensation on their next contract. 9/11 happened and they stayed with the incremental gains.

We were able to get C2K directly because of 3b6.

We gave that away in c2k. For that reason, but primarily due to work rule changes, changes to reserve, and pbs, I voted no. Sure the $$$ was fantastic. But being relatively junior then, the work rules impacted my young family more profoundly than the $$$ enhanced it. Remember, current pay rates did not impact retirement then unless you were in your final 3 years.

And to answer your final question, it will be good enough once we have unity and make a stand to obtain compensation that at least exceeds the rate of inflation. 4-8-3-3 does not do it.

TheManager

The reason most here have bought into small increases is because of retirement.

Honestly, would you have voted for 4-8-3-3 if we still had a pension? Not likely as your earnings over the final three years would be the driver for your pension check deposited in a BVI bank.

4-8-3-3 does not beat inflation if one uses the more accurate shadow stats index. Therefore, I hope you are an investing savant and are turning your relatively smaller contributions into significant gains as it is pretty close to $20 a six pack in the islands today.

Imagine we re-negotiated for 6-12-5-5. We would have been just ahead of inflation. Run the numbers for your seat and see how much more you could have put away to work on your retirement. I understand the desire for TVM, however, we are just settling for crumbs instead of actual bites.

Herkflyr

To play devil's advocate, because your post just invites it:


Because they never took an attitude of "burn the house down until we get the moon and then some." Their attitude was always "work hard, play hard, be happy with reasonable compensation that built up modestly every year."

Because they never HAD traditional retirement to begin with! It is easy for a company to avoid filing for BK so as to avoid paying crippling DB payouts...when the company never had a DB to fund in the first place!

Sure they did...for 30 f'ckin years! But as a buddy of mine at SWA once told me, while legacy pilots spent all their time figuring out how to turn one week of vacation into three weeks off, and all sorts of other ways to get paid for NOT working, SWA guys were working hard and enabling a prosperous company that could afford a decades-long string of modest, but consistent pay raises.

I disagree.

And were pretty happy to stay with said incremental gains.

Please get your facts straight. PBS wasn't even thought of until the avoid-BK LOA 46 in 2004. It had nothing to do with C2K. You claim reserve got worse with C2K? I claim it got a whole lot better, as the 12 hour long call window didn't exist until then, and ALL reserves got to sit two separate short call windows...EVERY single on call day prior to C2K.

See above. Why don't you just admit that you are a "just say no" sort who not only has never seen an agreement that he would vote yes on, but doesn't every WANT to see such an agreement. Why? Because voting NO is so much easier, and in a way almost fun.

More generic blah blah. Define "unity" please. With 4-8-3-3 you mean 13-3-3 right? After all the "4" came six months prior to the amenable date and the "8" on the date. Other pilot groups wish they had such problems.

Carl Spackler

Awesome! We haven't heard that in a while and I've missed it. What about stomping our feet, beating our chests, knocking over the tables and burning the house down? Were you going to save those for a later post?

Carl

tsquare

How much more could I have put away if we got a 50% pay increase? A 75% pay increase? And in case you haven't niticed, we don't have a DB pension anymore. Last I checked, dALPA or dPA don't write the checks. So how long are you willing to wait for your "bite"? At what point does waiting to take a bigger bite become a negative? If you need a little help, I suggest talking to the nearest American pilot. They are simple questions but ones that require a little math to answer. You CAN do math, right? Just give me a time frame and some percentages. A couple will do nicely.

Herk is right. You just like saying no. Carl just misses his green book/red book thing.... Either way, the result is the same.

johnso29

The recall was an ugly issue no doubt. But politics are an ugly part of life. DPA will not be immune from them, nor lawsuits.

It's very easy to row the same way when you don't actually have to produce results. Promises are easy to make when you don't actually have to follow through.

Carl Spackler

You were SO close. Here's the truth:

ALPA National is effectively The Delta MEC

Carl

johnso29

When you can't provide proof of anything else, then you've answered the question.

johnso29

Based on what? Proof? Or conspiracy theories and in cruise stories?

Carl Spackler

Here's what you just refuse to acknowledge: The best reps in the world are too easily circumvented by the extremely heavy hand of ALPA national. That's why reps under the ALPA dictatorship have been rendered all but meaningless unless those reps are in complete agreement with ALPA national. Doesn't it interest you at all that words like military style dictatorship are being used in LEC writings and MEC recall meetings? I know you always just thought I was throwing out gratuitous insults, but you're seeing my exact descriptors being used by elected officials. Are we all just misguided malcontents?

Carl