Free Bird

Progress like ALV+15? Maybe realign the number of days in the summer bid periods? If DALPA would stop selling contracts that require fewer pilots for X amount of flying and thus continuing our stagnation, many of us wouldn't have a problem with DALPA.

Voting "No" for C2012 had nothing to do with possibly getting more (although I think we could have) it had everything to do with the fact that we could of given up less. At this point in time after everything we have been through, this group shouldn't of given up anything!

The risk of DPA is better that knowing that DALPA will give the company almost anything they want.

Vikz09

Now that's funny.

I sent in a card to listen the discussion, pros vs cons. Every time the staunch Alpa contingent call a fellow pilot a name because they have a different view point pushes me further away. You have Alpa leadership demanding that DPA is dealt with, like a bounty placed on the head of a athlete.

It appears that each time Alpa goes on the offensive, they direct their energy at name calling their constituents. If this is Alpa's defense, its failed on me and several others that I know. I used to be a strong believer in Alpa, even had a Alpa email address for years of work on a committee, while working at a previous airline. I am not sure Alpa national has their finger on the pulse anymore. Seems to me its more about self preservation at this point, which tends to lead to dire consequences.

Bob Wiley

OK maybe that was a little over the top. I just get tired of the same people whining on here.

tsquare

I believe those admissions have been made. What I find interesting is that there has been a vast turnover of representation since the dee pee ay came into being and there is still no satisfaction. (Standing by for the inevitable "but it is a structural problem" mantra). So what makes you think guys like Carl and Caplinger are gonna be any different?

tsquare

Other than "the scourge" comment, (which I believe was somewhat out of context, and I'm not going to try and debate it... AND, the maker of said comment is now removed from office....) who, and this is important... IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY... has called anybody names?

Your "self preservation" comment is interesting.

tsquare

So what are you going to be saying if the dee pee ay delivers ANY concessionary particle of a new agreement? Or are you naive enough to believe it is going to be all puppy dogs and flowers with them and that everything on any contract will do nothing but benefit us?

Free Bird

Nothing is perfect, and Im sure if DPA gets the nod that there will be some bumps in the road, that's to be expected. I'm not saying that everything has to benefit us; however, we should be beyond giving items that cost us.

I want a union that protects our jobs, it's really that simple. If DPA were to put forward a TA that that either through outsourcing or work rule concessions required fewer pilots, I will be among the first to call them out.

Certain things in C2012 were a step in the right direction. Did we really have to give up other items to get those gains? I hate to say it, but the phrase "what are you willing to give up for that" rang true imo.

Now I hear DALPA say "we hear you loud and clear, pay is the number one issue to you" and I'm really concerned about what they will give to get that money.

Bucking Bar

... and just how many times on this thread have DPA proponents called me names? Does that have the same effect?

johnso29

You mean like all 76 seaters being converted to 80 seats & 82 seaters from here on out? Or less money then we actually received in this contract? Or no "unverified" sick time? Or no compensation for not meeting the 316 NRT requirement? Or returning seniority to reserve? Or dropping international SC from 24 hours to 14 hours before part 117 negotiations?

Yup. They gave up a ton on our last contract. To think anyone will come in a magically restore wages and work rules to C2K levels, without any concessions along the way is foolish at best. DALPA has made mistakes, and they'll make more. But not one single DPA supporter has provided an example of a independent union who has been successful at restoration or negotiating an industry leading contract. And if anyone wants to point to UPS, keep in mind they have pilots on the street because their contract allows management pilots to pick up the slack.

To vote for DPA simply because one hopes or thinks they can't be any worse than ALPA is dangerous.

Bucking Bar

That is what the surveys say.

Will the DPA take surveys? I understand the DPA intends on publishing the results. Unfortunately you and I probably are not going to like the publication of the fact that more than 80% of pilots want pay and fewer than 20% list scope as their first concern*

* completely made up numbers.

IMHO scope and job protection provisions have to be sacrosanct or else they will be "sold." I understand the DPA wants the same, but their strategy just will not work ... their strategy is opposed to the reality of what Delta pilots (in the aggregate) say they want.

It will be too late to prevent harm by the time the DPA begins to reconcile their representation with reality.

IE: My Captains say they like me. Still, at least 85% would be perfectly happy replacing the FO's seat with a magazine rack if you gave them $20 an hour.