Delta Pilots Association
11-04-2013, 05:00 AM
#7894
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 767ER capt
Posts: 1,190
11-04-2013, 05:07 AM
#7895
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I think Carl has a new hero.
"Para-noia will destroy ya"
When I see idiotic posts like this, it's really tempting to respond with something like this:
I don't believe ALPA's plan of pocketing all our dues money and personally profiting from payoffs by management will ever help to return us to what we had.
It would be tempting to act just like you, but I'd be too embarrassed to actually write a post like that and mean it.
I know part of the new Secret Police plan is to define your enemy so they spend their time defending themselves rather than getting to define themselves. It's a tactic right out of Saul Alinsky's book Rules For Radicals. You're just doing your part as per the directive from the Secret Police, but it's very very transparent.
Carl
I don't believe ALPA's plan of pocketing all our dues money and personally profiting from payoffs by management will ever help to return us to what we had.
It would be tempting to act just like you, but I'd be too embarrassed to actually write a post like that and mean it.
I know part of the new Secret Police plan is to define your enemy so they spend their time defending themselves rather than getting to define themselves. It's a tactic right out of Saul Alinsky's book Rules For Radicals. You're just doing your part as per the directive from the Secret Police, but it's very very transparent.
Carl
Now we see another example of this latest Secret Police tactic of defining your enemy by lying about them.
If there was ever any doubt about just how awful these Moak disciples are and how they'll stop at nothing to acquire power, this should remove all doubt. And the Secret Police is just starting to get ramped up again. There will be much more of this and other Saul Alinsky strategies.
Carl
If there was ever any doubt about just how awful these Moak disciples are and how they'll stop at nothing to acquire power, this should remove all doubt. And the Secret Police is just starting to get ramped up again. There will be much more of this and other Saul Alinsky strategies.
Carl
See how well the Alinsky tactics work? A smart guy like Bar now parrots the comment as if DPA had actually said it. Even though nobody in DPA leadership has ever said or written anything of the sort.
The tactics are effective, but they haven't stopped the march from 500 cards to 5,000 plus cards.
Carl
The tactics are effective, but they haven't stopped the march from 500 cards to 5,000 plus cards.
Carl
11-04-2013, 05:12 AM
#7896
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
PS: Read Bar's post above. ALPA is DPAs best advertisement.
11-04-2013, 05:22 AM
#7897
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Well seeming making predictions is in vogue today, my prediction: If the DPA calls for a vote they go down 60% to 40%, very similar to contract 2012. The silent majority of Delta Pilots have a long history of swinging elections when ready room talk/web board chat would indicate otherwise. Contract 1996 and 2012 come to mind.
I thought we are opening contract talks this spring, if so I sure hope this is settled before then.
In recent times every merger has been accompanied by a drive for a new union, remember the PPA ? The drives were always started by pilots who thought they got screwed in the mergers joined by the 15% of RD's who are convinced that ALPA is out to get them. The DPA was started by FNW pilots who again were angry at the outcome of the SLI rapidly joined by the traditional ALPA haters. The difference this time is the triple slam of; age 65 stagnation, bankruptcy and the ensuing wage and benefits rape, and the worst economy since the great depression all combining to make most everybody question everything from our companies to our union representation.
When I look at where the DL pilot group is compared to other US passenger airline groups and compare how the independent unions have done vis a vie DALPA I find no hope in the independents. Yes SWAPA is good but they are the model for constructive engagement. They got where they are today with small increases every year and bonuses every year from a very successful company. The APA will always be known for 3 failures: Turning down the most lucrative contract in the history of US airlines right before 9-11 (DL and ALPA were already predicting a downturn in US airlines a month before ). They fought fiercely against age 65 and couldn't even convince their own Congressman much less anyone else to vote against it. Last but not least, by demanding a home run in stalled contract negotiations they lost millions of unrecoverable dollars in compensation for their members. The fought the good fight but got their a$$es kicked. USAPA is a joke and I don't think I need to add anything to their resume except why is the DPA using the same legal group ? That's downright scary !
I always believe in majority rules and if by some chance the DPA wins I will respect the results and support the DPA. However, I ask look around at where we have been and where we are now. We are at the top of the heap save maybe SW and we are getting ready to negotiate for more gains with the most profitable airline in history. I just hope we don't have an ongoing power struggle over our representation to hamstring us.
I thought we are opening contract talks this spring, if so I sure hope this is settled before then.
In recent times every merger has been accompanied by a drive for a new union, remember the PPA ? The drives were always started by pilots who thought they got screwed in the mergers joined by the 15% of RD's who are convinced that ALPA is out to get them. The DPA was started by FNW pilots who again were angry at the outcome of the SLI rapidly joined by the traditional ALPA haters. The difference this time is the triple slam of; age 65 stagnation, bankruptcy and the ensuing wage and benefits rape, and the worst economy since the great depression all combining to make most everybody question everything from our companies to our union representation.
When I look at where the DL pilot group is compared to other US passenger airline groups and compare how the independent unions have done vis a vie DALPA I find no hope in the independents. Yes SWAPA is good but they are the model for constructive engagement. They got where they are today with small increases every year and bonuses every year from a very successful company. The APA will always be known for 3 failures: Turning down the most lucrative contract in the history of US airlines right before 9-11 (DL and ALPA were already predicting a downturn in US airlines a month before ). They fought fiercely against age 65 and couldn't even convince their own Congressman much less anyone else to vote against it. Last but not least, by demanding a home run in stalled contract negotiations they lost millions of unrecoverable dollars in compensation for their members. The fought the good fight but got their a$$es kicked. USAPA is a joke and I don't think I need to add anything to their resume except why is the DPA using the same legal group ? That's downright scary !
I always believe in majority rules and if by some chance the DPA wins I will respect the results and support the DPA. However, I ask look around at where we have been and where we are now. We are at the top of the heap save maybe SW and we are getting ready to negotiate for more gains with the most profitable airline in history. I just hope we don't have an ongoing power struggle over our representation to hamstring us.
I signed up after the RAH debacle.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 11-04-2013 at 05:35 AM.
11-04-2013, 05:46 AM
#7898
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
how much does a distrust of ALPA factor into the DPA drive? I don't think I have a single friend who signed a DPA card that uttered "I got screwed" or "the contract didn't go the way I thought it should" or "I didn't lIke the SLI " or "I expected to be in the tophalf of the ER list by now and since I'm not i blame ALPA". Pilots are smarter than that. They (my friebds) all did it because they don't trust ALPA to be out for anyone but ALPA.
I signed up after the RAH debacle.
I signed up after the RAH debacle.
1 - ALPA has allowed (even supported) a tremendous amount of outsourcing that has cost a lot of Delta pilot jobs and caused our career advancement to be significantly stagnated.
2 - ALPA has no objective for pay restoration. From all indications, ALPA believes that bankruptcy was a reset and that we have to get "reasonable" improvements from that new baseline, which of course cannot possibly get us back even near pre-BK buying power in any reasonable amount of time.
Now will DPA adequately address these issues? Who knows? But many of us have seen enough from ALPA to know that they will not adequately address these issues because they have clearly accepted many of these changes to the value of our profession as the new status quo or "new reality."
11-04-2013, 06:03 AM
#7899
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
you make a lot of great points, but I wonder how much does a distrust of ALPA factor into the DPA drive? I don't think I have a single friend who signed a DPA card that uttered "I got screwed" or "the contract didn't go the way I thought it should" or "I didn't lIke the SLI " or "I expected to be in the tophalf of the ER list by now and since I'm not i blame ALPA". Pilots are smarter than that. They (my friends, all RJ guys btw) all did it because they don't trust ALPA to be out for anyone but ALPA.
I signed up after the RAH debacle.
I signed up after the RAH debacle.
11-04-2013, 06:09 AM
#7900
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
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