Purple Drank

So now that ALPA is approaching irrelevancy, you have just now reached that conclusion?

The time for that was before ignoring the survey results and helping the company rush into a godawful contract.

I hate to tell you, but your platitude is too little, too late.

LeineLodge

I hope you're just exaggerating here to make your point. If you really believe that this contract is that bad you will likely never be pleased.

Is/was there room for improvement? Hell yes.

Is our contract godawful? Not by a long shot. I'm not even a sunny optimist, yet I can smell the roses and enjoy many of the things we have. Bitter and pessimistic is no way to go through life.

DAL 88 Driver

Got it. Have expectations similar to what you had when you were hired... and you are bitter and pessimistic.

We are a little more than 32% BELOW the buying power most of us expected when we got into this career. That's pretty awful in my book.

LeineLodge

I'm just saying constantly bemoaning the point is not getting us anywhere. I'd love to have that extra 32% buying power. Do you guys really think there is a pilot on the list (especially in the ALPA structure) that doesn't?

That said I stand by my opinion that this contract is not godawful.

Carl Spackler

I don't think I'm junior enough to have to worry about that, but it could happen. The whale is great, but my buds tell me the 777 is great too. ATL would be a closer commute for me.

Since you're yet another one of those DALPA cultists who hope I get displaced because of my support for an independent union, I can only imagine your disappointment at my lack of concern.

This again? You guys were shouting this from the rooftops when we had 500 cards. Now we have over 5,000 (over half from Delta south guys) and you're still shouting. Can't you see this tactic hasn't worked for you? Keep it up though because its a great barometer for me to judge the intelligence of the Secret Police. If this is still all you got, you're no competition at all.

Now that right there is funny. I don't care who you are!

Carl

LeineLodge

Further, lay out a strategy that gets me there and I'm all for it.

Chipping away at the agent that has successfully gotten back a good chunk of what was lost is counter to your goal of restoration.

Just because things aren't as you wish doesn't mean they are as bad as they could be. We have made some significant progress which I hope continues. I'd rather that continue in 2015 than squander opportunities while DPA tries to find which way is up.

Bearcat57

Try to keep up. If you think the most immediate need is the contract, you're about to get blindsided with a larger one. But then again, you will probably only recognize the failure of concentrating on a single issue when you start your commute to Dubai, Doha or Abu Dhabi. It is a new world and the angry little boys club (DPA) doesn't have a clue how to deal with it.

News flash for you-- our pay, working conditions and benefits are important, but so is protecting our interests so we can earn and enjoy them in our own sandbox, not theirs. How about we all pull in the same direction? Care to join us?

Hillbilly

I agree LL. I think all Delta pilots are unified in the concept that we want more, particularly in Section 3.

I strongly disagree with a blanket statement that our contract as a whole is "godawful". That comes off as an emotional exaggeration, particularly to those who have worked under contracts at other carriers that were/are significantly worse in almost every respect when compared to our current Delta PWA.

No matter how valid and on point some of the issues expressed are, as soon as you throw something into the mix like that, the credibility of the entire thing goes right down the tubes. I see it frequently and it does not inspire confidence in the message. If you've got a valid point, you don't need to get emotional about it nor do you need to exaggerate it into something that is no longer accurate nor valid.

DAL 88 Driver

See, that's where we just can't find common ground. You think ALPA has "gotten back a good chunk of what was lost" and made "significant progress?" I just don't see where the facts support that.

We took a 42% cumulative pay cut, lost our pension, and had thousands of our jobs outsourced. A 42% cut requires a 73% increase on day one to restore. The longer you go (with inflation marching on) the more that 73% number continues to grow. So here we are... almost 10 years later... and we are still at a 32% cut in buying power (which means the initial draconian 32.5% pay cut we took prior to BK has been sustained with zero recovery), we still lost the pension (got some things in exchange, but still a significant net loss of benefit), and still have thousands of our jobs outsourced. In terms of pay rates alone, in almost 10 years we've made about 16% progress out of the 73% needed. At that rate, we need way longer to restore our profession and our careers than the vast majority of us have left.

Sorry, you're entitled to your opinion... but I think if you take the emotion out of it and just look at the facts, you will see that we have made very little progress toward restoration.

Now if your objective is not restoration... If you've accepted bankruptcy as a reset and only expect "reasonable" improvements from that new baseline... Well then we've done pretty darn well and your expectations are in line with ALPA's expectations and apparent objective. Forgive me if I don't accept that and want to try representation that will at least TRY to achieve the objective that I believe is appropriate and worth pursuing.

Like Carl has said, ALPA is simply a poorly performing vendor. When a vendor performs poorly... and especially when a vendor performs poorly and shows no sign of even making an effort to improve... well in the real business world that vendor is (how can I say this delicately?) "let go." It's simply a business decision.

LeineLodge

I can respect your difference in opinion, and thanks for laying it out in a civilized manner.

Where I believe the biggest difference comes into play is what we both view as achievable. What would you consider a reasonable dent in your 73% desire? Half of that rounded up is 37%. As you point out, the longer it takes us to get that the bigger the number really has to be to overcome inflation and the opportunity cost of forgoing a smaller (IMO more reasonable) chunk and then trying again in a few years. I just don't see getting a 37% raise on day 1 or even year 5 when the majority of our competitors are still paid less than we are (let's save the SWA, FedEx, etc argument for another time.)

I also don't see DPA getting that for me either. What I do expect is that they would try and fail, thus costing me 1-2 incremental contracts in the interim. You say we're only 16% of the way back from C2K? I'm not a numbers guy so I'll take that at face for the moment. How much further behind that curve would we be if we had taken the APA/USAPA approach? I just can't ignore the real world examples that have occurred, or are occurring around us. That is why I take purple's pessimism as what it is, pessimism. Are we where we want to be? No. Are we significantly better off than where we would be using DPA's proposed strategy? IMO yes.

Again, I respect your laser focus and desire to restore the profession. I just think any strategy we adopt toward that end MUST be rooted in reality, whether we particularly like that reality or not.