Sink r8

So the logic is that ALPA National officers had a "huge party" at the Diplomat, and the inescapable conclusion is that we must slit our own wrists at DALPA by switching to DPA?

Lots of 11 post wonders crawling out of the woodwork, with a lot of friendly advice, lately. Strangely, it's all the same: people that mailed their card "weeks ago" (before DPA's "coming out" website) want to help us with our decision making. All we have to do is feel the rage at Prater, and let it guide us towards decertification at the local level. Feel the dark side of the force...

This thing reeks.

NuGuy

Heyas,

I'm going to agree with Pops here, and it will be my last comment on the DPA stuff.

I agree with the premise. I think that ALPA is bloated and embroiled with TOO much bureaucratic inertia to change. There is too much money in it , and the people in power have been paying it for so long, there's just no changing. You got law firms, you got financial people, all the myriad number of people feeding at the trough not willing to give it up.

It's kind of like an airline. Everyone makes money...the fuel people, the aircraft leasors, the airports, the outsourced labor providers, heck, even the cleaning company...everyone BUT the airline (and by extension, the employees)...of course, the way it's set up, it's NOT supposed to make money...just a trough for others to feed at.

Money makes people do funny things.

I mean really, the Westin Diplomat? With free booze? I'll go so far as say fine with the free lunch buffet (people gotta eat), but a swank place like that, with open bar and you got kids making $20k a year on the line, not to mention the GIGANTIC pay and benefits everyone has taken in the last 10 years. That takes a lot of brass to pull off. You could run the same shin-dig out at the FLL Raddison for 1/100 of the cost.

THIS kind of thing won't change. The Delta pilots deserve better. We have the mass and the cash flow to make it happen. All of the services we get from ALPA now we can rent without the ridiculous overhead that goes with it. We can group up with UPS, AMR, SWAPA and probably the others that jettison out after we do to form up a lobbying group that represents OUR interests, without any fear of the constant barrage of lawsuits that has paralyzed the current leadership.

With the above said, ALPA KNOWS how to protect the cash flow. Their communication people are RELENTLESS, and to not think that they aren't populating this very forum (among others) is naive. They know how to hammer a message, and make it stick.

That's why the DPA probably won't make it. You can't overcome the machine unless you bring your own A game to the party.

You need to be in people's faces ALL THE TIME to counter the relentless drumbeat. Not just email, but phone trees, and FACE TO FACE communications. That means a network of dedicated people hitting the airports and the crewrooms. A website will NOT cut the mustard.

And with our recently merged group, you need people from both sides that are trusted by the pilot group implicitly. Guys with unimpeachable records to lead the way. You can't have BS rules and lofty sounding mission statements. You need highly competent and respected people going out and getting the job done, not a bunch of single cause guys that start bickering about who gets the title of vice-assistant semi-grand poo bah as soon as things start going their way.

We don't have a "Nic award" to galvanize the pilot group as it did the USAir pilots. We need to organize for our own reasons, and I don't see anything that will move this group off the status quo. I see a half-a$$ed attempt as worse than nothing at all, because it poisons the well for the REAL change we need.

Nu

Tuck

For the first 8 months of the year, his total pay was $338,000. He'll make another $128,000 minimum for an annual 2010 of about $466,000. That's what's listed on the website anyway - it doesn't do a great job of breaking down compensation so that may not (probably not) include everything.

Elmer Fudd

Take whatever action you are comfortable with. A huge party does not translate into union desertification. The fact remains that ALPA has been perceived to be failing to serve the best interests of the DAL pilots. Numerous reasons have been stated. Reread the posts here & on the DALPA web site. Stay with ALPA if you're satisfied.

Some of us are late to the party, since we didn't know this web board existed; hence the 11.....12 post wonder. Sorry I wasn't aware of it earlier.

Strangely, I DID mail my card weeks ago. I learned about DPA from another pilot & strangely enough, went to the website & filled out the form. The actual date was Sept 20th.

I'm trying to echo what a lot of others feel. ALPA is an option, if you're satisfied with the product. Otherwise, you may have other choices. I presume you are of an age where you can make up your own mind. You don't need to feel the rage toward Prater, or anyone else. The ALPA guys are doing their best. Some people feel things could be done better. The discussions here & other places are about how to best address the interests of the DAL pilots. Opinions will differ. People will make different decisions, which doesn't make them bad people. Go with what you're happy with.

Elmer Fudd

Nu-

You make some very good points WRT DALPA and DPA. Well said.

You mean like: Home | Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations

Will the DPA make it? Time will tell, but never say never. Gandhi threw the Brits out of India without raising a weapon. Lech Walesa actually stood up for his rights in the communist shipyard in Gdansk. The Berlin wall came down & the Soviet Union has been dismantled. All these things started with an idea. This is no different.

tsquare

Except that this is America. Wh haven't thrown anybody out since 1776. The political machines no matter how local or how national, are powerful, and Americans in general are too afraid to exact a change in the known quantity. No.. the DPA will not survive just like the PPA before them, because the ALPA national machine is way too strong. But hopefully it will awaken some of those that have no idea of how badly we wasting our money that they will demand reformation. Well.. I can dream can't I?

Pineapple Guy

tsquare - this has NOTHING to do with the "ALPA national machine". DPA will fail for multiple reasons:

1) They preach transparency but refuse to be transparent. No one really knows who is pulling the strings.
2) Most Delta pilots are apathetic, and it will take an energized pilot group to change from the status quo.
3) Most that aren't apathetic are already volunteering either full or part time with ALPA, and in spite of its warts, see it as the best chance to restore the profession, and also the best chance to reform ALPA.

acl65pilot

Spot on PG.

Also even with the warts of ALPA there are so many positives. Go read the ALPA Mags article by the FAA lead Counsel and the value he places on a union like ALPA. Them are the facts.

Check Essential

I think you are correct.
A DPA without names and faces is doomed.

Sink r8

Exactly. I think there is a lot that ALPA should do better. I've been screaming at my reps about their communications efforts for a while. I also think Prater is useless, and coincidentally, I believe Moak has done his job relatively well, but that it's the appropriate time to move up or out. Time for this MEC to show it is about a philosphy of discipline and professional engagement, not about a person.

DPA should be judged on its' own merits. We have a Delta branch of the ALPA at Delta. So it's not Prater vs. DPA, but actually it's DPA's vs. itself. Because the action they seek isn't some sort of innocent event. Asking us to de-certify ALPA is like Cortez asking his men to follow to the new world and warning them in advance that he plans on burning the ships. Can't happen without a compelling message, a complete set of VERY competent and trustworthy individuals, in the presence of an unberable transgression by ALPA, and the will of an overwhelming majority of the pilots. A 51% de-certification essentially begs management to use us as they wish. And we've already seen the kind of things they like to do when they get anything close to a free reign...