Bucking Bar

Alpha,

That is good information.

It also illustrates how painful being at the bottom of the list has been. While we have lost capacity and down-gauged senior pilots have returned to line flying, pushing down the bottom to staff those Douglas jet positions.

This is management gaining efficiencies. Folks are incorrect if they think ALPA is causing their pain. To the contrary, we gained 717A positions as a result of our dealings and will have a greater role in the international flying.

Thanks.

alfaromeo

I fully understand the frustration of having people return from these non flying statuses (MIL, FUR) to flying positions that are senior to you. That process is almost at a conclusion. The 717's hit the property in September, the 737's in October and things will change, but not until the fall. It is just the assertion made by some (not you) that Delta is shrinking away to oblivion is not factually correct. In 2008 we still had a bad hangover from the 9/11 fallout. Pilots on furlough bypass and many electing to take MIL Leave rather than return to flying. That hangover has been cured at the expense of the most junior pilots who are not seeing advancement. For those pilots that have returned to Delta, they don't see it that way. Where you stand depends upon where you sit.

Carl Spackler

I see I have to add all the numbers in your columns because you label total, and its not really a total. Anyway, your numbers still don't add up. 12,434 minus the 1,728 non-flying pilots equals 10,706...not the 10,591 that you claimed. So, 10,706 flying pilots in 2008...and 10,534 flying pilots today. And that includes 256 pilots returning from military leave in that time frame. We're down just under 200 flying pilots 5 years later. That's what I mean when I say our airline is shrinking.

Pull and plug had no bearing on this data. Apples and oranges.

I can't imagine why you would do that unless you were purposely trying to ensure valid comparisons couldn't be made. Not to worry, I did my best to undo all the fluff you're trying to use to obfuscate...see above.

Carl

Carl Spackler

Yes, efficiencies gained by the productivity concessions that we voted in.

I think they realize their vote for this TA is causing their pain. But they are correctly angry at the previous MEC administration for the sales job as shown by the previous chairman's letter.

IF we actually gain those 717A positions, and they are funded by displacements from higher paying equipment, that will also be the result of our "dealings". Regarding the notion that we will have a greater role in international flying, that has yet to be measured or proven.

Carl

Carl Spackler

You're just trying to rehabilitate your reputation here Alfa. Nobody's frustrated by returning MIL, FUR. They're frustrated that you and the other members of that disastrous MEC administration sold the TA as a growth vehicle. You brushed off the productivity concessions as insignificant. Many of us are channeling the frustration by working for an independent union.

Really Alfa? How will they change? Will they change by the seniority list continuing to shrink while pilots are displaced to lower paying equipment?

Great example of the old alfaromeo spin. Nobody is saying this except you. Delta is shrinking...there is no doubt about that. Oblivion is a dramatization only used by you in order to claim something to be factually wrong. It's called a straw man argument.

Again, that's not what's causing the stagnation. Only 256 pilots have returned from military leave since 2008, and only about 120 have returned from furlough. We've had almost 1,000 retirements since then and just a few small classes of hiring to partially replace them. When you hard sell your pilots to make more productivity concessions, shrinking is no surprise.

Carl

Bucking Bar

Ok, ok, ok... Not that I'm changing sides, but this Blues Traveller song sure sums it up ...

Time to get my guitar and sit short call over the holiday

alfaromeo

Carl,

Once again when you are shown to be wrong you twist around in circles trying to hide why you are wrong. The staffing numbers were pulled in July and the list was built in December. NWA had an early out program in place. Pilots retired. DC-9's and other aircraft were leaving the fleet. Staffing positions that were filled in July were not filled in December. The pull and plug numbers masked some of that excess in the ratio numbers. It's not that hard. Look at the graph, it says January 2009 and not July 2008. Keep spinning though, that's your forte.

tsquare

But you love that concept. Bigger pays more... right? If you truly cared, and you truly believe that we are shrinking and will continue to shrink, then you would be touting longevity based pay from the rooftops. As it is, your bloviating is symbolism over substance. Talk is cheap. Yours however, is priceless.


Down with the British.

tsquare

Next contract, I want holiday pay. Pay/no credit for regular line holders and something similar for short call. The rest of the civilized world has it, why not us?

Carl Spackler

Another great example of why nobody trusts you Alfa. Do you really think people can't see your weak attempts at personal rehabilitation by wrongly over complicating what is essentially very simple? Everything you're trying to add to this discussion is pure BS meant to confuse rather than provide clarity. It's one of the many reasons you and the MEC bureaucrats are back flying the line.

This is very simple. First, pick a date and take total seniority list pilots and subtract non-flying pilots. Second, pick that same date later and do the exact same math. If the number of working pilots is higher, then you're right. If the number of working pilots is lower, then I'm right. Very simple.

The good thing about a forum where people like you don't control communication is that everyone here can decide for themselves who lies, spins and deflects.

Carl