Delta Pilots Association
02-11-2012, 11:53 AM
#7461
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
02-11-2012, 11:58 AM
#7462
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Yeah... seriously.
One of our biggest domestic competitors (if not THE biggest) pays its pilots 50% more to do the same kind of flying and does ALL of its own flying (no outsourcing). Drop the SWAPA contract on the table and tell them we believe it is very reasonable that our pilots are paid and utilized the same as our biggest competitor in our biggest hub. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it doesn't seem reasonable to the NMB, then maybe they are not unbiased.
__________________________________________________
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties. A third party, the mediator, assists the parties to negotiate their own settlement (facilitative mediation). In some cases, mediators may express a view on what might be a fair or reasonable settlement, generally where all the parties agree that the mediator may do so (evaluative mediation).
Mediation has a structure, timetable and dynamics that "ordinary" negotiation lacks. The process is private and confidential. The presence of a mediator is the key distinguishing feature of the process. There may be no obligation to go to mediation, but in some cases, any settlement agreement signed by the parties to a dispute will be binding on them.
Mediators use various techniques to open, or improve, dialogue between disputants, aiming to help the parties reach an agreement (with concrete effects) on the disputed matter. Much depends on the mediator's skill and training. The mediator must be wholly impartial. Disputants may use mediation in a variety of disputes, such as commercial, legal, diplomatic, workplace, community and family matters. A third-party representative may contract and mediate between (say) unions and corporations. When a workers’ union goes on strike, a dispute takes place, the parties may agree to a third party to settle a contract or agreement between the union and the corporation.
One of our biggest domestic competitors (if not THE biggest) pays its pilots 50% more to do the same kind of flying and does ALL of its own flying (no outsourcing). Drop the SWAPA contract on the table and tell them we believe it is very reasonable that our pilots are paid and utilized the same as our biggest competitor in our biggest hub. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it doesn't seem reasonable to the NMB, then maybe they are not unbiased.
__________________________________________________
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties. A third party, the mediator, assists the parties to negotiate their own settlement (facilitative mediation). In some cases, mediators may express a view on what might be a fair or reasonable settlement, generally where all the parties agree that the mediator may do so (evaluative mediation).
Mediation has a structure, timetable and dynamics that "ordinary" negotiation lacks. The process is private and confidential. The presence of a mediator is the key distinguishing feature of the process. There may be no obligation to go to mediation, but in some cases, any settlement agreement signed by the parties to a dispute will be binding on them.
Mediators use various techniques to open, or improve, dialogue between disputants, aiming to help the parties reach an agreement (with concrete effects) on the disputed matter. Much depends on the mediator's skill and training. The mediator must be wholly impartial. Disputants may use mediation in a variety of disputes, such as commercial, legal, diplomatic, workplace, community and family matters. A third-party representative may contract and mediate between (say) unions and corporations. When a workers’ union goes on strike, a dispute takes place, the parties may agree to a third party to settle a contract or agreement between the union and the corporation.
02-11-2012, 02:17 PM
#7463
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
A bit of an educated guess here, but ...
If you look at how Delta earns profits, SWA scope would be "unreasonable" from management's (ie NMB's) perspective unless it provided some sort of seamless transfer which would allow continuation of commerce. Just as instantly ceasing the Alaska codeshare would put a lot of SEA's widebody flying in the red, you can imagine the effect on LGA.
I've thought structural unity was the only winning, practical, strategy for recovery. That means mergers with airlines which perform flying that a majority of Delta pilots simply are not interested in. They don't see the issue as "unity." They are simply looking towards their next upward movement or retirement.
ALPA has failed to teach its members the value of unity. On the MEC level unity has actually been attacked as a bad thing when an unpopular merger, or outsourcing, is seen to present an opportunity to partner with management for greater short term gain.
Th track record of the Delta MEC has been absolutely clear. They did not want unity with ASA & Comair in 2000, nor did they desire it with Compass eight years later. Hence, our problem with scope is not at National. The problem is here. I actually think (and thank those on this board) that awareness has been raised to the point that it is politically untenable to do a further outsourcing deal in the open. I like what my local Council reps say on scope.
If you look at how Delta earns profits, SWA scope would be "unreasonable" from management's (ie NMB's) perspective unless it provided some sort of seamless transfer which would allow continuation of commerce. Just as instantly ceasing the Alaska codeshare would put a lot of SEA's widebody flying in the red, you can imagine the effect on LGA.
I've thought structural unity was the only winning, practical, strategy for recovery. That means mergers with airlines which perform flying that a majority of Delta pilots simply are not interested in. They don't see the issue as "unity." They are simply looking towards their next upward movement or retirement.
ALPA has failed to teach its members the value of unity. On the MEC level unity has actually been attacked as a bad thing when an unpopular merger, or outsourcing, is seen to present an opportunity to partner with management for greater short term gain.
Th track record of the Delta MEC has been absolutely clear. They did not want unity with ASA & Comair in 2000, nor did they desire it with Compass eight years later. Hence, our problem with scope is not at National. The problem is here. I actually think (and thank those on this board) that awareness has been raised to the point that it is politically untenable to do a further outsourcing deal in the open. I like what my local Council reps say on scope.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-11-2012 at 02:37 PM.
02-11-2012, 02:44 PM
#7464
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
A bit of an educated guess here, but ...
If you look at how Delta earns profits, SWA scope would be "unreasonable" from management's (ie NMB's) perspective unless it provided some sort of seamless transfer which would allow continuation of commerce. Just as instantly ceasing the Alaska codeshare would put a lot of SEA's widebody flying in the red, you can imagine the effect on LGA.
If you look at how Delta earns profits, SWA scope would be "unreasonable" from management's (ie NMB's) perspective unless it provided some sort of seamless transfer which would allow continuation of commerce. Just as instantly ceasing the Alaska codeshare would put a lot of SEA's widebody flying in the red, you can imagine the effect on LGA.
As to pay, I don't think they have a leg to stand on. SWA pays its pilots about 50% more than Delta pays its comparable pilots (narrowbody domestic pilots who do similar flying). Putting that section of the SWAPA contract on the table shouldn't be considered "unreasonable" at all.
02-11-2012, 02:45 PM
#7465
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
Something I've been meaning to bring up ....
One wild card for the DPA is if their representation would be recognized, even in the event that they were to win a legitimate election. As the article below points out, the government has a track record for intervention to circumvent the democratic process of representational elections.
While walking the minefield of an alternative representation solution, here's a grenade that I'm not sure how you manage to avoid. It is not "fair" but the NMB wants, above all else, to keep commerce flowing. If they see the DPA as a threat ....
The NLRB canceled my vote | Washington Examiner
http://youtu.be/8Z1clf_gVI8
While walking the minefield of an alternative representation solution, here's a grenade that I'm not sure how you manage to avoid. It is not "fair" but the NMB wants, above all else, to keep commerce flowing. If they see the DPA as a threat ....
Several pending union decertification elections were called off before employees had a chance to vote. Other elections that had already taken place were abruptly nullified -- the NLRB didn't even bother to count the ballots.
http://youtu.be/8Z1clf_gVI8
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-11-2012 at 02:57 PM.
02-11-2012, 02:48 PM
#7466
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
Perhaps. But nobody (at least nobody who wants to be successful) starts off negotiations by asking for something the other side already thinks is completely reasonable. So we put SWA scope on the table. And then if/when they point out what you just said, then we come up with a way (and hopefully a fairly aggressive timeline) to start phasing the outsourcing out and bringing the flying to the Delta pilots seniority list.
As to pay, I don't think they have a leg to stand on. SWA pays its pilots about 50% more than Delta pays its comparable pilots (narrowbody domestic pilots who do similar flying). Putting that section of the SWAPA contract on the table shouldn't be considered "unreasonable" at all.
As to pay, I don't think they have a leg to stand on. SWA pays its pilots about 50% more than Delta pays its comparable pilots (narrowbody domestic pilots who do similar flying). Putting that section of the SWAPA contract on the table shouldn't be considered "unreasonable" at all.
You don't want to go into NMB negotiations with too great a list of open items. There are a limited number of NMB mediators and the limitations of their time means only so many items can be mediated in a given time period.
D-ALPA's strategy of seeking interim agreements is designed to reduce the number of open items in Section 6, so our time can be used most efficiently. This is very astute strategic planning, IMHO.
02-11-2012, 05:21 PM
#7467
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Well ... it depends.
You don't want to go into NMB negotiations with too great a list of open items. There are a limited number of NMB mediators and the limitations of their time means only so many items can be mediated in a given time period.
D-ALPA's strategy of seeking interim agreements is designed to reduce the number of open items in Section 6, so our time can be used most efficiently. This is very astute strategic planning, IMHO.
You don't want to go into NMB negotiations with too great a list of open items. There are a limited number of NMB mediators and the limitations of their time means only so many items can be mediated in a given time period.
D-ALPA's strategy of seeking interim agreements is designed to reduce the number of open items in Section 6, so our time can be used most efficiently. This is very astute strategic planning, IMHO.
02-11-2012, 05:57 PM
#7468
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
I really think it would be much easier to staple today. The movement and upgrade times aren't what they were during that time frame (2000) at the Regionals. Parking 50's has led to stagnation there and our junior would welcome warm bodies beneath them even if there was some sort of fence. The Regionals would benefit from our attrition and provide them with career advancement rather than the constant worry that you have been undercut and now face furlough or bankruptcy. It would also provide us with experienced pilots. I feel the timing is right to drop the SWAPA PWA on Management's desk with their Section 1 highlighted. Is that really unreasonable? We do have leverage. We are profitable. I don't think the NMB would think it is unreasonable. If only we had a bargaining agent who would do just that!
The logistics will never be as clean as they once were other than a very few select scenarios. At this point, significant scope recapture as it pertains to regional pilot groups would likely look more like a flow through or preferential hiring than a full blown SLI.
At the end of the day it is up to Delta pilots to fix Delta scope. We owe no other group one seat's worth of Delta flying any more than we can expect rights to bid/flow/SLI with Frontier, United Express or the next IndyAir, ALPA, IBT, no union or in house it really doesn't matter. We need to bring the flying back to Delta Air Lines and if they need other companies to hide the debt from analcysts in lala land that think you can go long term into debt while pretending its debt free then they can shuffle leases through leasing companies but not pilot jobs and not outside of our seniority list.
02-11-2012, 07:13 PM
#7469
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Yeah... seriously.
One of our biggest domestic competitors (if not THE biggest) pays its pilots 50% more to do the same kind of flying and does ALL of its own flying (no outsourcing). Drop the SWAPA contract on the table and tell them we believe it is very reasonable that our pilots are paid and utilized the same as our biggest competitor in our biggest hub. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it doesn't seem reasonable to the NMB, then maybe they are not unbiased.
__________________________________________________
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties. A third party, the mediator, assists the parties to negotiate their own settlement (facilitative mediation). In some cases, mediators may express a view on what might be a fair or reasonable settlement, generally where all the parties agree that the mediator may do so (evaluative mediation).
Mediation has a structure, timetable and dynamics that "ordinary" negotiation lacks. The process is private and confidential. The presence of a mediator is the key distinguishing feature of the process. There may be no obligation to go to mediation, but in some cases, any settlement agreement signed by the parties to a dispute will be binding on them.
Mediators use various techniques to open, or improve, dialogue between disputants, aiming to help the parties reach an agreement (with concrete effects) on the disputed matter. Much depends on the mediator's skill and training. The mediator must be wholly impartial. Disputants may use mediation in a variety of disputes, such as commercial, legal, diplomatic, workplace, community and family matters. A third-party representative may contract and mediate between (say) unions and corporations. When a workers’ union goes on strike, a dispute takes place, the parties may agree to a third party to settle a contract or agreement between the union and the corporation.
One of our biggest domestic competitors (if not THE biggest) pays its pilots 50% more to do the same kind of flying and does ALL of its own flying (no outsourcing). Drop the SWAPA contract on the table and tell them we believe it is very reasonable that our pilots are paid and utilized the same as our biggest competitor in our biggest hub. That seems perfectly reasonable to me. If it doesn't seem reasonable to the NMB, then maybe they are not unbiased.
__________________________________________________
Mediation, as used in law, is a form of alternative dispute resolution (ADR), a way of resolving disputes between two or more parties. A third party, the mediator, assists the parties to negotiate their own settlement (facilitative mediation). In some cases, mediators may express a view on what might be a fair or reasonable settlement, generally where all the parties agree that the mediator may do so (evaluative mediation).
Mediation has a structure, timetable and dynamics that "ordinary" negotiation lacks. The process is private and confidential. The presence of a mediator is the key distinguishing feature of the process. There may be no obligation to go to mediation, but in some cases, any settlement agreement signed by the parties to a dispute will be binding on them.
Mediators use various techniques to open, or improve, dialogue between disputants, aiming to help the parties reach an agreement (with concrete effects) on the disputed matter. Much depends on the mediator's skill and training. The mediator must be wholly impartial. Disputants may use mediation in a variety of disputes, such as commercial, legal, diplomatic, workplace, community and family matters. A third-party representative may contract and mediate between (say) unions and corporations. When a workers’ union goes on strike, a dispute takes place, the parties may agree to a third party to settle a contract or agreement between the union and the corporation.
02-11-2012, 07:25 PM
#7470
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
A mediator must be impartial.. true. But they are not required to be blind to the corporation's makeup either. Before you label me as a kool aid drinker. DALPA apologist.. whatever, look at the rational logical argument. SWA and DAL ARE different. They are a bus service.. providing nothing.. barely even getting bags to where their passengers are going. We fly to as many countries as they do cities.. different missions with different requirements of both the corporation and it's labor force. I would LOVE for us to be in a position to demand SWA's scope clause. I also realize that in the extremely remote chance that we ever got that kind of scope clause, the ability for DAL to grow (not that we are now.. but that is a different story) we would watch the corporation shrink like you cannot believe... really be objective in how you look at this.
Will significantly improving our scope (i.e. reducing or even eliminating the outsourcing) and significantly improving our pay create certain challenges for management? Of course. But that's what they get the big bucks for.
Oil/fuel prices spike through the roof? Management gets to come up with a plan to deal with that.
Tsunami takes out ATL (work with me here), management gets to come up with a plan to deal with that. (Okay, that one was really just my feeble attempt at humor.)
Pilot costs increase back to pre-bankruptcy levels as a percentage of total costs? Management gets to come up with a plan to deal with that.
Lunesta prescription price doubles. EB gets to come up with a plan to deal with that:
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