Delta Pilots Association
02-02-2012, 06:46 PM
#7391
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
So why then does DPA feel it necessary to remain in play, effectively dividing the pilot group which will lead potentially to a weak contract... oh.. yeah.. I see.. never-mind.
02-02-2012, 06:52 PM
#7392
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2012
Position: DAL
Posts: 623
But I thought all those DPA cards expired, and they were irrelevant.
Which is it?
02-02-2012, 07:12 PM
#7393
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 335
That ship has sailed. Comparing NWA and DAL situations that no longer exist is the lowest form of DALPA propagandism--and that's saying something.
I wonder how many screen names slowplay and sailingfun have. Their positions are wholly discredited, and viola! Gomer, jackazz, etc. etc. magically pop out of the woodwork spouting the same idiocy. Whether they are the same guy or not, it's clear that the DALPA spin machine has been collecting FPL to formulate and execute a campaign to delude its membership, and muddy the waters.
Disgusting. We need a new bargaining agent.
I wonder how many screen names slowplay and sailingfun have. Their positions are wholly discredited, and viola! Gomer, jackazz, etc. etc. magically pop out of the woodwork spouting the same idiocy. Whether they are the same guy or not, it's clear that the DALPA spin machine has been collecting FPL to formulate and execute a campaign to delude its membership, and muddy the waters.
Disgusting. We need a new bargaining agent.
I urge you to keep up these emotional rants on every subject available, and please by all means proudly sign them as a DPA supporter.
02-02-2012, 07:51 PM
#7394
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Because DALPA may well go ahead and resign if we voted down the TA. Without a solid plan B in place, DALPA would have huge leverage against us to vote YES. We DPA supporters are ready for that possibility. Thus we intend to use our leverage to make DALPA understand that they won't get away with that behavior this time...unless they're really willing to resign.
Nonsense. Even a strong DPA supporter like me will be supporting DALPA all through negotiations if they end up being in the seat. But my support for DALPA will come with the explicit threat that they either perform, or become history.
Perfect! Wrong suppositions, leading to wrong-headed conclusions. Did you know you could get flight pay loss for this?
Will do.
Carl
Nonsense. Even a strong DPA supporter like me will be supporting DALPA all through negotiations if they end up being in the seat. But my support for DALPA will come with the explicit threat that they either perform, or become history.
Perfect! Wrong suppositions, leading to wrong-headed conclusions. Did you know you could get flight pay loss for this?
Will do.
Carl
02-02-2012, 11:26 PM
#7395
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
**Note: This is not an endorsement for DPA. This is a written response to the unsigned Touch and Go that was sent out by DALPA regarding the TWA lawsuit. Read it and decide for yourselves as to the merit of the content and discuss. Slow, Sailing, et al, care to elaborate?**
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley
Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council 100 Hartsfield Centre Parkway, Suite 800 Atlanta, GA 30354
Advisory Council
Delta Pilots Association P.O. Box 17025 Tampa, FL 33682-7025
Sent via FedEx
Gentlemen,
I have been following the ongoing undertaking of the Delta Pilots Association to disassociate the Delta pilots from the Air Line Pilots Association. While the undersigned, and TWA pilots in general, have no position in that attempt, my involvement continues to be to set the record straight as it applies to the legacy of the TWA pilots. Hence this letter.
In a recent Delta MEC newsletter Touch & Goes the entire edition is aimed at explaining the TWA pilots’ lawsuit and its effect on Delta pilots and ALPA. Like previous ALPA propaganda surrounding the event, it is filled with inaccuracies. Hopefully, I will set the record straight in this correspondence.
The newsletter opens with the statement that the internet is a “grand thing” and goes on to espouse how it reaches large audiences and how easily misinformation can be disseminated. We agree with those two premises. Both the Delta MEC and the Delta Pilots Association are equally guilty in spreading misinformation regarding the TWA Pilots’ lawsuit. It is obvious that you chose to listen to ALPA International’s version of events to author Touch & Goes and it misses the mark in many areas.
Interestingly, there is not one reference to the Delta Pilots Association in the newsletter, which is the prime distributor of the perceived financial consequences of the TWA lawsuit on DAL and ALPA pilots.
Twice I have been thrust into the position of countering what ALPA has broadcast about the TWA lawsuit. I wrote to Captain Prater in 2007 and ALPA President Moak last year countering what they were telling ALPA pilots about the lawsuit and the loss in Federal Court. It is interesting that neither gentleman chose to write back or pick up the phone to get the facts. Instead, they listen to a gaggle of ALPA International lawyers, staffers and consultants who have a deep-seated interest in not losing the Delta pilots from their ranks (or UAL, if DAL leaves). The DPA has chosen to post my missive to Captain Moak on their website.
Much of the misinformation the Delta MEC distributed in its January 20, 2012 Touch & Goes is identical to the information contained in an ALPA International FastRead which was issued after the lawsuit verdict I urge you to read my rebuttal letter to Captain Moak and, if you have the courage, post it on the DAL MEC website.
Touch & Goes explains away the trial, incredibly, with an allegory that compares the TWA pilots’ mauling by the American pilots to a baseball player who throws a game to gain favor of the opposing team, which is not only morally reprehensible, it is astonishing that you even would use it in the comparative sense. You follow that metaphor by maligning a simulator instructor who is simply doing what every pilot should be doing – looking
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley, Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council
Advisory Council Delta Pilots Association
Page 2
back on his or her performance to see what can be improved. As a former International Check Airman, I can tell you that after every checkride we went over every detail, small and large. It’s what keeps us safe and alive. The TWA pilots held their heads up high during the entire process, including the Duty of Fair Representation Lawsuit.
The one statement that really galls me is this one: “The plaintiffs in this case seem to ignore the fact that ALPA actually enlisted the support of a U.S. Senator that intervened on behalf of the TWA pilots and was able to secure important job protections along with a more favorable seniority outcome.” That statement is so patently misleading, it is staggering that you would twist the truth that far. While it is true that “ALPA…enlisted” the aid of Senator Bond (MO), it was our own TWA MEC Legislative Affairs representative who initiated the request for Bond’s assistance - not ALPA International. As the trial transcript points out, ALPA International fought Bond’s initiative at every step of the way – to defeat.
Oh yes, the trial transcript. There are two sides to this story – your side, my side and the facts. You may discount my side if you wish. If you want the truth, read the transcript – all 3350 pages of it. It is located here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1990436/TWA%20Transcript.pdf
Touch & Goes advances the question as to “how could ALPA lose a jury trial.” You then go on with a large treatise as to how. Let me boil it down for you: they lost because the jury believed the evidence presented by the plaintiffs (TWA pilots) versus that of the defendant (ALPA).
One of the reasons given by Touch & Goes was “The jury heard false and misleading testimony.” To be clear - shortly after the guilty verdict In July 2011, the ALPA attorney actually filed a motion in court stating exactly that and the result was a lecture by the judge who not only denied the motion, but went further and sanctioned the ALPA attorney by fining him $5,000 for bringing the motion before him. The Court Order of that event can be found on the Delta Pilots Association website:
http://www.delta-pilots.org/storage/...11Sanction.pdf
The transcript of that hearing on the motion can also be found on the DPA website:
http://www.delta-pilots.org/storage/...0testimony.pdf
As for decertifying the class because only “some” pilots were harmed, the numbers that were unharmed are miniscule. In the disaster, I lost over 20 years seniority. I went from a 1/6/67 hire to 2/23/1987, a loss of 20 years. I went from LAX Captain to STL Captain if I wished to fly Captain. With the absurd seniority integration I could have bid LAX but would have been an FO. And I was in the top 70 TWA pilots at the time of my retirement in 2002.
As for the amount of damages in this matter, The Delta Pilots Association has published a number and has even done math calculations as to the prospective impact of a damages settlement on ALPA members. While the 1.2 billion number has legs, it is not, repeat, not our demand. We do not know what the damages are and damage
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley, Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council
Advisory Council Delta Pilots Association
Page 3
experts have been retained to do just that and, as of yet, have not set a dollar amount. It may be more, and may be less and, in any case, is beyond what ALPA is capable of paying.
Assessments are controlled by the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws as well as the ALPA Administrative Manual and both will play an important part in our settlement talks.
Touch and Goes references the request to mediate the damages instead of proceeding with a court trial. In it you state that our attorneys contacted ALPA’s attorneys. That is not true, it was the other way around. Our attorneys stay in close contact with their clients, the Class of TWA Pilots. Here’s what occurred as reported by our attorneys to the TWA pilots:
“We have some potentially promising news for you. ALPA's counsel reached out to us and asked if we would participate in mediation. This happened before Christmas and, just yesterday, the parties finalized and signed a mediation agreement that covered the hiring of the mediator and the confidentiality of the mediation. We selected a mediator who will have no power to bind the parties, but will assist (or facilitate) the parties in negotiating a potential settlement. Having now taken this very important first step, we thought it appropriate to inform you of this development. “
Lastly, the Delta pilots are not without guilt in the ALPA/TWA debacle. When we appeared before the ALPA Executive Council in 2001 begging, literally, for Major Contingency Funding to thwart the American Airline pilots’ Allied Pilots Association pummeling due to our giving up Scope – at ALPA’s recommendation - we were denied. The ALPA DAL representative to that body told us emphatically –bluntly is a better word - that he was not going to support our request.
It is interesting to note that at the same meeting, the Executive Council gave MCF funding to Comair in the amount of $2,000,000 for strike preparation (they previously gave the DAL MEC 10 million for the same purpose). In addition, that same evening, the ALPA VP Administration, took American’s APA representatives to dinner and told them that ALPA would pay their expenses for bringing the APA back into ALPA. Nice, huh?
In 2001 I made a trip to visit with the UAL MEC, the DAL MEC, the NWA MEC and the CAL MEC to beg their support. That effort fell on deaf ears. Matter of fact, I vividly recall the then DAL MEC Chairman’s deer in the headlights look as I pleaded with him for support which ultimately resulted in a great waste of my time. Same with UAL, CAL and NWA.
That journey gave me a very bad taste in my mouth for airline pilot unions’ unity.
Our only recourse was to sue. You well know the result of that voyage. I would rather have had the power of the world’s largest airline pilot union at our back - at the time, 70,000 pilots –and the fraternal coalition with the millions of AFofL members – which would have given us a fair and equitable integration.
Instead, over 1200 pilots were stapled. Captains became copilots, captains became furloughed – and have remained there for 10 years. Is that your vision of unionism? Speaking of unionism, after we went to single
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley, Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council
Advisory Council Delta Pilots Association
Page 4
carrier the APA Merger Committee chairmen appeared before the TWA pilots to explain the integration. His exact quote was: “We *******d you because we could.” He should have added, “thanks to ALPA.”
In 1931 the TWA pilots helped start ALPA. For 70 years we paid dues, conducted the business of the TWA pilots and made numerous contributions to ALPA International and air carrier safety, including funding the Major Contingency Fund. We are now at a place we would rather not be. We simply wished for a fair and equitable seniority integration. Perhaps that can happen in bankruptcy court.
Respectfully,
/s/
Robert A. Pastore
Captain (TWA, Retired)
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council
Former Member, TWA Board of Directors
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley
Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council 100 Hartsfield Centre Parkway, Suite 800 Atlanta, GA 30354
Advisory Council
Delta Pilots Association P.O. Box 17025 Tampa, FL 33682-7025
Sent via FedEx
Gentlemen,
I have been following the ongoing undertaking of the Delta Pilots Association to disassociate the Delta pilots from the Air Line Pilots Association. While the undersigned, and TWA pilots in general, have no position in that attempt, my involvement continues to be to set the record straight as it applies to the legacy of the TWA pilots. Hence this letter.
In a recent Delta MEC newsletter Touch & Goes the entire edition is aimed at explaining the TWA pilots’ lawsuit and its effect on Delta pilots and ALPA. Like previous ALPA propaganda surrounding the event, it is filled with inaccuracies. Hopefully, I will set the record straight in this correspondence.
The newsletter opens with the statement that the internet is a “grand thing” and goes on to espouse how it reaches large audiences and how easily misinformation can be disseminated. We agree with those two premises. Both the Delta MEC and the Delta Pilots Association are equally guilty in spreading misinformation regarding the TWA Pilots’ lawsuit. It is obvious that you chose to listen to ALPA International’s version of events to author Touch & Goes and it misses the mark in many areas.
Interestingly, there is not one reference to the Delta Pilots Association in the newsletter, which is the prime distributor of the perceived financial consequences of the TWA lawsuit on DAL and ALPA pilots.
Twice I have been thrust into the position of countering what ALPA has broadcast about the TWA lawsuit. I wrote to Captain Prater in 2007 and ALPA President Moak last year countering what they were telling ALPA pilots about the lawsuit and the loss in Federal Court. It is interesting that neither gentleman chose to write back or pick up the phone to get the facts. Instead, they listen to a gaggle of ALPA International lawyers, staffers and consultants who have a deep-seated interest in not losing the Delta pilots from their ranks (or UAL, if DAL leaves). The DPA has chosen to post my missive to Captain Moak on their website.
Much of the misinformation the Delta MEC distributed in its January 20, 2012 Touch & Goes is identical to the information contained in an ALPA International FastRead which was issued after the lawsuit verdict I urge you to read my rebuttal letter to Captain Moak and, if you have the courage, post it on the DAL MEC website.
Touch & Goes explains away the trial, incredibly, with an allegory that compares the TWA pilots’ mauling by the American pilots to a baseball player who throws a game to gain favor of the opposing team, which is not only morally reprehensible, it is astonishing that you even would use it in the comparative sense. You follow that metaphor by maligning a simulator instructor who is simply doing what every pilot should be doing – looking
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley, Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council
Advisory Council Delta Pilots Association
Page 2
back on his or her performance to see what can be improved. As a former International Check Airman, I can tell you that after every checkride we went over every detail, small and large. It’s what keeps us safe and alive. The TWA pilots held their heads up high during the entire process, including the Duty of Fair Representation Lawsuit.
The one statement that really galls me is this one: “The plaintiffs in this case seem to ignore the fact that ALPA actually enlisted the support of a U.S. Senator that intervened on behalf of the TWA pilots and was able to secure important job protections along with a more favorable seniority outcome.” That statement is so patently misleading, it is staggering that you would twist the truth that far. While it is true that “ALPA…enlisted” the aid of Senator Bond (MO), it was our own TWA MEC Legislative Affairs representative who initiated the request for Bond’s assistance - not ALPA International. As the trial transcript points out, ALPA International fought Bond’s initiative at every step of the way – to defeat.
Oh yes, the trial transcript. There are two sides to this story – your side, my side and the facts. You may discount my side if you wish. If you want the truth, read the transcript – all 3350 pages of it. It is located here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1990436/TWA%20Transcript.pdf
Touch & Goes advances the question as to “how could ALPA lose a jury trial.” You then go on with a large treatise as to how. Let me boil it down for you: they lost because the jury believed the evidence presented by the plaintiffs (TWA pilots) versus that of the defendant (ALPA).
One of the reasons given by Touch & Goes was “The jury heard false and misleading testimony.” To be clear - shortly after the guilty verdict In July 2011, the ALPA attorney actually filed a motion in court stating exactly that and the result was a lecture by the judge who not only denied the motion, but went further and sanctioned the ALPA attorney by fining him $5,000 for bringing the motion before him. The Court Order of that event can be found on the Delta Pilots Association website:
http://www.delta-pilots.org/storage/...11Sanction.pdf
The transcript of that hearing on the motion can also be found on the DPA website:
http://www.delta-pilots.org/storage/...0testimony.pdf
As for decertifying the class because only “some” pilots were harmed, the numbers that were unharmed are miniscule. In the disaster, I lost over 20 years seniority. I went from a 1/6/67 hire to 2/23/1987, a loss of 20 years. I went from LAX Captain to STL Captain if I wished to fly Captain. With the absurd seniority integration I could have bid LAX but would have been an FO. And I was in the top 70 TWA pilots at the time of my retirement in 2002.
As for the amount of damages in this matter, The Delta Pilots Association has published a number and has even done math calculations as to the prospective impact of a damages settlement on ALPA members. While the 1.2 billion number has legs, it is not, repeat, not our demand. We do not know what the damages are and damage
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley, Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council
Advisory Council Delta Pilots Association
Page 3
experts have been retained to do just that and, as of yet, have not set a dollar amount. It may be more, and may be less and, in any case, is beyond what ALPA is capable of paying.
Assessments are controlled by the ALPA Constitution and Bylaws as well as the ALPA Administrative Manual and both will play an important part in our settlement talks.
Touch and Goes references the request to mediate the damages instead of proceeding with a court trial. In it you state that our attorneys contacted ALPA’s attorneys. That is not true, it was the other way around. Our attorneys stay in close contact with their clients, the Class of TWA Pilots. Here’s what occurred as reported by our attorneys to the TWA pilots:
“We have some potentially promising news for you. ALPA's counsel reached out to us and asked if we would participate in mediation. This happened before Christmas and, just yesterday, the parties finalized and signed a mediation agreement that covered the hiring of the mediator and the confidentiality of the mediation. We selected a mediator who will have no power to bind the parties, but will assist (or facilitate) the parties in negotiating a potential settlement. Having now taken this very important first step, we thought it appropriate to inform you of this development. “
Lastly, the Delta pilots are not without guilt in the ALPA/TWA debacle. When we appeared before the ALPA Executive Council in 2001 begging, literally, for Major Contingency Funding to thwart the American Airline pilots’ Allied Pilots Association pummeling due to our giving up Scope – at ALPA’s recommendation - we were denied. The ALPA DAL representative to that body told us emphatically –bluntly is a better word - that he was not going to support our request.
It is interesting to note that at the same meeting, the Executive Council gave MCF funding to Comair in the amount of $2,000,000 for strike preparation (they previously gave the DAL MEC 10 million for the same purpose). In addition, that same evening, the ALPA VP Administration, took American’s APA representatives to dinner and told them that ALPA would pay their expenses for bringing the APA back into ALPA. Nice, huh?
In 2001 I made a trip to visit with the UAL MEC, the DAL MEC, the NWA MEC and the CAL MEC to beg their support. That effort fell on deaf ears. Matter of fact, I vividly recall the then DAL MEC Chairman’s deer in the headlights look as I pleaded with him for support which ultimately resulted in a great waste of my time. Same with UAL, CAL and NWA.
That journey gave me a very bad taste in my mouth for airline pilot unions’ unity.
Our only recourse was to sue. You well know the result of that voyage. I would rather have had the power of the world’s largest airline pilot union at our back - at the time, 70,000 pilots –and the fraternal coalition with the millions of AFofL members – which would have given us a fair and equitable integration.
Instead, over 1200 pilots were stapled. Captains became copilots, captains became furloughed – and have remained there for 10 years. Is that your vision of unionism? Speaking of unionism, after we went to single
January 31, 2012
Captain Tim O’Malley, Chairman, Delta Master Executive Council
Advisory Council Delta Pilots Association
Page 4
carrier the APA Merger Committee chairmen appeared before the TWA pilots to explain the integration. His exact quote was: “We *******d you because we could.” He should have added, “thanks to ALPA.”
In 1931 the TWA pilots helped start ALPA. For 70 years we paid dues, conducted the business of the TWA pilots and made numerous contributions to ALPA International and air carrier safety, including funding the Major Contingency Fund. We are now at a place we would rather not be. We simply wished for a fair and equitable seniority integration. Perhaps that can happen in bankruptcy court.
Respectfully,
/s/
Robert A. Pastore
Captain (TWA, Retired)
Former Chairman, TWA Master Executive Council
Former Member, TWA Board of Directors
Last edited by TheManager; 02-02-2012 at 11:43 PM.
02-03-2012, 05:11 AM
#7396
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 117
"Hey DALPA, this is Carl, I'm right behind you during negotiations. In fact, that's my knife tip you feel in your back"
With friends like you....
02-03-2012, 05:35 AM
#7397
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
Rather B Fishin, I'd bet you'd Rather B Here where I'm, on a Caribbean Island.
I just bought 3 fresh red snappers right out the ocean. I'll have one tomorrow
and the other two next week. You'd probably like to fish it yourself.
I thought you guys might like a little change of wind here.
I just bought 3 fresh red snappers right out the ocean. I'll have one tomorrow
and the other two next week. You'd probably like to fish it yourself.
I thought you guys might like a little change of wind here.
02-03-2012, 07:43 AM
#7399
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
**Note: This is not an endorsement for DPA. This is a written response to the unsigned Touch and Go that was sent out by DALPA regarding the TWA lawsuit. Read it and decide for yourselves as to the merit of the content and discuss. Slow, Sailing, et al, care to elaborate?**
I'll comment as to the character and integrity of the author of that letter. I knew him (knew of his excellent reputation long before I actually met him) and had him as a ground instructor during my time at TWA. When I went to check airman school, Bob did an incredibly good presentation on the fine points of Jeppesen charts. Bob was very well known as one of TWA's finest and sharpest. Personally, I would give great credibility to whatever he says. The guy is extremely sharp. But, sadly, guys like Slow will probably just try to tear him down with their typical politically motivated mud slinging.
Last edited by DAL 88 Driver; 02-03-2012 at 10:25 AM. Reason: corrected spelling
02-03-2012, 10:12 AM
#7400
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 273
They said on the DALPA forum that more pilots voted NO on C2K than the DPA has members. I don't know why C2K is the goal if it garners the same NO vote again just because they can?
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