bigbusdriver

Dude. It's a difference of opinion. I'm not convinced and you clearly are.

Carl Spackler

Wow, do you have a short memory! The way out for the company is the same as it has always been. Come to the union with a truth-based case, and we pilots will amend our contract. We don't say: "A contract is a contract"...only management uses that line.

Such a great example of how management doesn't even have to fight very hard with guys like this in our union. We should be asking for C2K restoration by using the SWAPA contract and company as an example of pattern bargaining. We make more profit than SWA...but if the pilots of Delta even think about asking for SWA pay and QOL, we're "bleeding the company dry." Amazing.


It was no such thing. It was an attempt by pilots who cared about their company, and hoped to keep it out of bankruptcy. Fortunately, I believe your views are in the minority.

Carl

Carl Spackler

But that's not what you do...dude. I brought up a subject (not a point). You didn't respond to that subject at all. Rather, you started another subject and hoped I wouldn't notice that you changed the subject. That's just a recipe for people talking past each other.

Add facts yes. Change the topic in midstream...you're kidding right? That's a formula for never agreeing on anything. If you can't stay on topic, you're not conversing.

Well, now you're just hysterical. Suspend your account? Who the heck ever advocated that? Don't be such a daisy.

Carl

bigbusdriver

OMG. You can't even discuss hypothetical questions without attacking. I'm asking if there's a way to structure the contract so we get paid properly (good raise), protect ourselves when they make even more money (increased pay) and provide a floor (never lower than X%) on what they can take back. I'm not suggesting evil contract thoughts but asking questions about how we do business. Are you really so blinded by bitterness that you can't even discuss a view that might contradict your views?

Carl Spackler

We pretty much have no other choice at this point because DPA will probably not have the cards before openers are exchanged. At least this time, we'll have a rock solid plan B when DALPA gives us the standard: "You guys better vote this in because it's the best we're going to get. If you vote this down, your MEC and negotiators will resign and we'll have to start over from square one....."

Carl

Carl Spackler

Clamp is absolutely right Bar. You're advocating something that's a complete reversal of past practice. No section 6 that I'm aware of followed your suggested pattern of radio silence until the TA is released. That's a recipe for the powder keg exploding. I still can't believe DALPA is going down this road.

Those are always the headlines...ALWAYS. You have to get used to that. Well maybe not, because DALPA is taking the tack of radio silence.

This is completely misguided and naive. But it doesn't matter, because DALPA agrees with you. Doesn't matter what the members want.

Carl

Wasatch Phantom

Big Bus,

I don't want to get into a pi**ing contest with you...

Management better care about who gave what to whom!

I would agree with you that letter 46 represented the lion's share of the concessions and that letter 51 was somewhat less. I did (reluctantly) vote for letter 46, but was strenuously against letter 51.

An "equitable" contract (my term for what I believe you are advocating) that balances shared reward and sacrifice, requires trust and mutual respect.

But I'm not seeing those qualities from Delta. I see them negotiating a contract and then looking for loopholes to exploit. I see them buying a few used MD-90s for relative "chump change" while expanding their RJ fleets to their contractual limits, all the while touting debt reduction. I see them abusing the Alaska code share, I see them negotiating numerous joint ventures, etc.

So while I think you and I are on the same page in some respects, Delta has not earned my trust with their actions. Trust, once lost, is hard to restore, Delta management's actions have done nothing to restore my trust, rather it's being eroded on a near daily basis.

Since they haven't acted in a manner consistent with mutual respect, and they haven't earned my trust, I'm not willing to (continue to) go down the road of appeasement (also known as "proactive engagement").

I guess that puts me in the "I want my money up front crowd".

Carl Spackler

Absolutely stunning. Pilots now aren't interested in participating in Delta's survival?...or a plan that may succeed? You're not even paying attention. Delta pilots are participating in Delta's survival right now. The billions of dollars in profits and the billions used to pay down debt is a direct result of pilots giving to the nth degree. And here's another news flash, this direct participation in the plan IS succeeding...not MAY succeed.

I know this is against the template you've created for this intemperate rant, but NOBODY here has EVER advocated for every dime of revenue up front. I know these facts won't matter to you, so...carry on!

Carl

Carl Spackler

Again, you're not listening. It's not a difference of opinion, it's simply a fact. The fact is: C2K was actually negotiated by the negotiating committee chairman of DALPA. That person is now a strong supporter of DPA. That's all I've ever said. It's not an opinion to be disagreed with or not. It's fact.

Carl

Carl Spackler

There was nothing hypothetical about your post. Here it is again for your review:

As you can clearly see, what I've bolded is not hypothetical. If you don't like it now that it has been read back to you, then I don't blame you. It was a silly post in so many ways. If you don't like it, then edit it...don't shoot the messenger.

Carl