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Old 01-21-2012, 06:24 PM
  #7261  
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Originally Posted by Reroute

Regardless of any damages, there is no individual liability to ALPA members for a DFR violation. But by all means Carl, don't let the facts get in your way.
Wow. Are you one of ALPA's lawyers who is "working for me?" You are splitting hairs. I'm not worried about "individual liability," I'm worried about a massive assessment.

If we as members are completely off the hook for any assessments, as you disingenuously insinuate, why haven't we seen any official communication to that effect?

The fact that we have not heard a peep to this effect from anyone willing to associate himself with that "fact" speaks volumes.

As it is, I suspect you are parsing words to obscure the depths of ALPA's incompetence.

Last edited by More Bacon; 01-21-2012 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 01-21-2012, 06:30 PM
  #7262  
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Originally Posted by Reroute
Nice talking point, but untrue.

Regardless of any damages, there is no individual liability to ALPA members for a DFR violation. But by all means Carl, don't let the facts get in your way.
I deserve that one because I was careless with my use of the word liability in my response to More Bacon. Allow me to revisit with More Bacon's post on this issue:

Originally Posted by More Bacon
More to the point, is there a scenario under which we are assessed up the @ss to cover ALPA's liability?
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Absolutely there is. We are ALPA. ALPA's liability is OUR liability.
When I said "absolutely there is" I meant in response to More Bacon's question as to whether there's a scenario under which we are assessed for this. And of course there absolutely IS a scenario where ALPA may decide to assess us. No question. Now as to your post again:

Originally Posted by Reroute
Nice talking point, but untrue.

Regardless of any damages, there is no individual liability to ALPA members for a DFR violation. But by all means Carl, don't let the facts get in your way.
Individual liability of ALPA members is NOT the question. It was not More Bacon's question, and it's not my assertion even though my previous post may have alluded to it. The question IS: Can individual ALPA members be assessed by ALPA or have their dues increased by ALPA to cover ALPA's liability in a DFR violation? The answer to that is unquestionably YES.

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Old 01-22-2012, 03:02 PM
  #7263  
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Originally Posted by Reroute
Nice talking point, but untrue.

Regardless of any damages, there is no individual liability to ALPA members for a DFR violation. But by all means Carl, don't let the facts get in your way.
I read the T&G - good info - but it completely failed to address what would happen if the award exceeded the limits of the Kitty-Hawk coverage.

IF that occurred ALPA would be bankrupt. Would they not assess us additional dues at that point to stay solvent and provide essential services or would they just go out of business?
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Old 01-22-2012, 03:16 PM
  #7264  
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Originally Posted by Enemyofthestate
I read the T&G - good info - but it completely failed to address what would happen if the award exceeded the limits of the Kitty-Hawk coverage.

IF that occurred ALPA would be bankrupt. Would they not assess us additional dues at that point to stay solvent and provide essential services or would they just go out of business?
Sadly, that is the essence of DALPA MEC communications. Either failing to address the real issues or deliberately spreading misinformation. This latest communique is just the latest example.

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Old 01-22-2012, 06:16 PM
  #7265  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Sadly, that is the essence of DALPA MEC communications. Either failing to address the real issues or deliberately spreading misinformation. This latest communique is just the latest example.

Carl

Happily, that is just your opinion. Many would say that the DPA does exactly what you accuse DALPA MEC of doing.

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Old 01-23-2012, 04:47 AM
  #7266  
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
Sadly, that is the essence of DALPA MEC communications. Either failing to address the real issues or deliberately spreading misinformation. This latest communique is just the latest example.

Carl
Not sure I agree with that - I get so much ALPA stuff in my mail box it's hard to keep up.

Reference Brady, it sounds like it's a weak case, and they just got lucky with one lower court, and appeals will likely reverse that ruling. Mediation is the norm at this point before moving on to appeals.

That said they still did not address the possibility the ruling is upheld and the limits of Kitty-Hawk insurance. A rational of nothing to worry about, I'm sure well prevail because our case is good and there's is not is not exactly warm and fuzzy inspiring.

The courts are full off unexpected rulings - many times more than ALPA has said RJ's will feed the mainline and cause growth or develop a route until it's profitable and then shift to larger aircraft.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:03 PM
  #7267  
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Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Supposedly TWA pilots and ALPA have agreed to mediation over the damages.

So to me that sounds like ALPA has agreed to pay out but wants to fight over how much those damages are.

Otherwise I doubt the TWA pilots would agree to mediation, thoughts? Any lawyers in the group?

Has anyone else been hearing about AirTran pilots beginning to form a group to sue ALPA over representation issues?

Not a lawyer but understand the TWA pilots reasoning.

They have estimated damages in the 1.2 to 1.5 billion dollar range. Obviously, the full amount will not be awarded but some percentage of it will when the judge determines the damages.

Even a reasonable low 20% puts ALPA at 240 to 300 million dollars. That would likely bankrupt ALPA in which the financial award would become largely uncollectable.

They want to settle for an amount that will bleed them dry but not cause them to default on the judgement.

ALPA is between a rock and a hard place. Become finacially hobbled, or, worst case bankrupt. Their fate if they did not mediate would also be in the hands of the judge that has admonished and sanctioned them and their counsel for the destruction of key evidence. That was not taken lightly by the judge.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:33 PM
  #7268  
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Originally Posted by TheManager
Not a lawyer but understand the TWA pilots reasoning.

They have estimated damages in the 1.2 to 1.5 billion dollar range. Obviously, the full amount will not be awarded but some percentage of it will when the judge determines the damages.

Even a reasonable low 20% puts ALPA at 240 to 300 million dollars. That would likely bankrupt ALPA in which the financial award would become largely uncollectable.

They want to settle for an amount that will bleed them dry but not cause them to default on the judgement.

ALPA is between a rock and a hard place. Become finacially hobbled, or, worst case bankrupt. Their fate if they did not mediate would also be in the hands of the judge that has admonished and sanctioned them and their counsel for the destruction of key evidence. That was not taken lightly by the judge.

Don't take my word for it. Read the actual court document that describes the willful and premeditated destruction of evidence on ALPA's part.

http://www.twapilot.org/TWA%20vs.%20...tionsBrief.pdf

It becomes easy to see perhaps why the jury rendered the 12-0 verdict rather quickly.

Interesting how the T and G did not touch on this. Sadly, if ALPA goes down it will be at its own hand as one of the 7 deadly sins will have reared its head... Greed.

Last edited by TheManager; 01-23-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 01-23-2012, 03:38 PM
  #7269  
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Originally Posted by TheManager
Don't take my word for it. Read the actual court document that describes the willful and premeditated destruction of evidence on ALPA's part.

http://www.twapilot.org/TWA%20vs.%20...tionsBrief.pdf

It becomes easy to see perhaps why the jury rendered the 12-0 verdict rather quickly.
Wow! Let's slow the paralegal training down for the rest of us to play along. You have attached the Plaintiffs' Brief for Sanctions, NOT the Court's Ruling (OPINION re 296 MOTION for Sanctions filed by HOWARD B. HOLLANDER, THEODORE A. CASE, MICHAEL V. FINUCAN, SALLY YOUNG, LEROY "BUD" BENSEL, PATRICK BRADY. Signed by Judge Joseph E. Irenas on 12/17/2009.) which says, in part:

...Plaintiffs are correct that ALPA could have moved faster in taking steps to preserve relevant evidence... ...However, Plaintiffs do not point to any evidence of bad faith. In contrast to the evidence presented in Zubulake v. USB Warburg LLC, 229 F.R.D. 422 (S.D.N.Y. 2004) (hereinafter Zubulake V), which included concrete proof of purposeful deletion of emails, id. at 427, Plaintiffs rely on speculation with regards to email deletion. For example, 269 boxes of documents from ALPA’s TWA field office were destroyed by Iron Mountain, a document management and storage company used by ALPA. Plaintiffs claim these boxes, which were all allegedly relevant, were intentionally destroyed. However, as stated in a letter from Iron Mountain, the boxes were inadvertently destroyed. Def. Br. Opposing Sanctions, 15. In Brewer, the Third Circuit made it clear that ”[n]o unfavorable inference arises when the circumstances indicate that the document or article in question has been lost or accidentally destroyed, or where the failure to produce it is otherwise accounted for.” 72 F.3d at 334. The destruction of the boxes appears to have been accidental, and Plaintiffs have provided only speculation to prove the contrary. Furthermore, Plaintiffs use vague statements, such as: “ALPA’s spoliation was so widespread and covered such a long period of time it can only be concluded that substantial evidence was destroyed which would have been favorable to Plaintiffs.” Pl. Reply Motion for Sanctions, 17. Such a catch-all statement, along with vague speculation as to whether evidence has been destroyed or even whether evidence was relevant does not rise to the specificity level required by the Third Circuit to impose sanctions or even make a finding of spoliation. While Defendants should have moved more quickly to place litigation holds on the routine destruction of certain documents and electronic data, the Court does not see any evidence of bad faith. Accordingly, the Court declines to issue a spoliation inference or to impose any other sanction at this time. For the above-stated reasons, Plaintiffs’ Motion for Sanctions will be denied. An appropriate order will be issued.
Or:

Case Summary: Bensel; Tests for Spoliation and Imposition of Sanctions
Bensel v. Allied Pilots Assoc., 2009 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 118342 (D.N.J. Dec. 17, 2009)
Background: Plaintiffs, former members of the Allied Pilots Association (ALPA), sued the association, alleging breach of duty of representation of its members.

Procedural History: Plaintiffs accuse Defendant Association of intentionally or recklessly destroyed documents, emails and other communication well into the discovery period for this lawsuit.

Discussion: The court begins by defining spoliation as: “the destruction or significant alteration of evidence, or the failure to preserve property for another’s use as evidence in pending or reasonably foreseeable litigation.” The court noted that when relevant documents are lost or destroyed “the trier of fact generally may receive the fact of the document’s nonproduction or destruction as evidence that the party that has prevented production did so out of the well-founded fear that the contents would harm him.” The court qualified that statement by adding that there must be a finding that the spoliation was intentional and that there was fraud and a desire to suppress the truth before the Court will make a finding of spoliation. The court then articulated the following test for a finding of spoliation.

Generally, to determine spoliation of evidence, four factors must be found:

(1) the evidence in question must be within the party’s control;

(2) it must appear that there has been actual suppression or withholding of the evidence;

(3) the evidence destroyed or withheld was relevant to claims or defenses; and

(4) it was reasonably foreseeable that the evidence would later be discoverable.

The court added that the duty to preserve relevant documents could attach even prior to litigation, although a party is certainly not required to retain every document in its possession. The court then stated the Third Circuit’s test for the imposition of sanctions for spoliation:

(1) the degree of fault of the party who altered or destroyed the evidence;

(2) the degree of prejudice suffered by the opposing party; and

(3) whether there is a lesser sanction that will avoid substantial unfairness to the opposing party and, where the offending party is seriously at fault, will serve to deter such conduct by others in the future.

The court then opined that in the first standard, that for finding spoliation, the second the element appeared to require bad faith. It then decided that the first prong of the test for sanction required bad faith as well.

The court noted that Defendant had only grudgingly complied with its discovery obligations, and recited examples suggesting that there was strong evidence that Defendants had failed to preserve evidence. However, the court also stated that Plaintiffs had not pointed to any evidence of bad faith, and relied only on speculation to explain the deletion of email by Defendants.

The court also wrote that Plaintiffs made vague statements, such as: “ALPA’s spoliation was so widespread and covered such a long period of time it can only be concluded that substantial evidence was destroyed which would have been favorable to Plaintiffs.” Such a catch-all statement, along with vague speculation as to whether evidence has been destroyed or even whether evidence was relevant does not rise to the specificity level required by the Third Circuit to impose sanctions or even make a finding of spoliation. While Defendants should have moved more quickly to place litigation holds on the routine destruction of certain documents and electronic data, the Court saw no evidence of bad faith. The court, therefore, denied the motion for sanctions at this time.
Quoting from the Plaintiffs' Motion without regard for the Court's opinion paints a very different picture of what actually happened. Can we all agree to use the Court Transcripts and actual Docket information from the cases going forward regardless or where we end on appeals instead of citing briefs out of context?

Last edited by bigbusdriver; 01-23-2012 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:17 PM
  #7270  
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Originally Posted by bigbusdriver
Quoting from the Plaintiffs' Motion without regard for the Court's opinion paints a very different picture of what actually happened. Can we all agree to use the Court Transcripts and actual Docket information from the cases going forward regardless or where we end on appeals instead of citing briefs out of context?
Dude, that may work with the chicks, but it's not impressing me. I won't finish my law degree for a few months, so let's shelf the legal gobbledygook. I'm ostensibly paying dues money to ALPA lawyers who are "looking out for us," and who know about that type of stuff.

Clearly, the guys we are paying are not looking out for you and me. They are looking out for the ALPA bureaucracy. Delta pilots' and the ALPA bureaucracy's interests overlap zero in this case. So we're paying lawyers to bend the Delta pilot group over...for a HUGE amount of money.

We're getting completely hosed. Time for a new bargaining agent!

Last edited by More Bacon; 01-23-2012 at 06:30 PM.
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