TheManager

Alpha posted in the DAL profit thread:

Average pay hours during C2K was 83 hours per pilot. ALPA uses 87 hours for committee members and 92 for the Negotiating Committee which is the only committee that are designated pilots.

C2K: 268 x 83 = $22,244
Average Committee guy : 182 x 87 = $15,834
Average Delta line holder : 182 x 87 = $15,834
Negotiating Committee : 182 x 92 = $16,744

If you count the per diem of $1,000 per month you do not get to C2K pay, no matter how you slice it. It is not a fact it is pure bunk. Plus, does anyone think that working more hours after bankruptcy is a pay raise? Please, someone tell me that the DPA doesn't think we get a pay raise when we work more hours.

It seems to me that DPA has morphed from being an alternative union concept to a sleazy ALPA attack machine. They have this website with no accountability and no ethics and just toss out sleazy trash to attack pilots that work for ALPA.





First of all, you are fooling nobody here Alpha. Every reader of these threads knows exactly how many hours per month they average. Your and ALPA's assertation that the AVERAGE line pilot sees 87 hrs per month is fantasy.

They can plug their numbers in easily and do the realistic math.

The facts remain the same:

DALPA Committee Members pay themselves between 87 and 92 hours per month.

These same Committee Members are also paid at a different rate than line pilots. They are paid on the highest equipment they can hold on paper. THIS is the huge windfall.

So let say a Committee Member is a 767 A making $182 an hour. On paper he can hold 777 A @ $217. But for illustration, lets look at the least ergregious example and just say he can hold A330 A @ $205. (Still less than a LUV captain )

At 87 hours a month, every month, it works out to a $24,012 increase over the actual seat position the pilot holds. Add in the $1000 monthly stipend and the roughly $900 in "lost per deim" that they did not enjoy from flying the line, its another $22,800.

Grand Total... $46,812 more dollars per year from collecting FPL at 87 hrs per month on the "highest equipment he can hold."

This low estimate $46,812 windfall from working at the Committee level is paid for by Delta Air Lines. This extra $46,812 also has these folks obviously closer to, and in some cases above their C2K w-2's, than the line pilots they represent. Do you believe they are as motivated to obtain restoration in C12K as the pilots are or not?

Problem is that DALPA is supposed to work for the pilots in a bottom up fashion. Sadly, today it is difficult to tell who exactly DALPA works for. They are definitely not bottom up and when we read the communication and press releases from DAL and DALPA, it is hard to differentiate who wrote what if you cover up the letter head. From the contract comparison that was lacking to the MOU's concerning JV's and code sharing, the line has become blurred.

This is important:

DALPA and DAL have close relationship that contain rewards. Kind of like rewards that governments provide to other governments. All aid money is dispersed not to alleviate poverty, but to purchase loyalty and influence.

Think about that. Now we all know why FPL is such a third rail political issue. We can not succeed if we are not unifed or have effective leadership. We can not be unifed or led when there is question as to the loyalty and influence of our leadership.

What we have here is a minimum of 46,812 reasons influence and loyalty can be bought. To eliminate the mere hint of influence peddling we can simply pay FPL directly, as a union. Of course with the one string of publishing FPL reports every month.


Ask yourselves this. Would it be worth it to you and your family to know that the representatives that hold the power and influence in the union have their extraodrinary FPL paid directly by the membership or the company?

paxhauler85

Are you referring to the company being the payer to the union rep?

If so, ALPA re-imburses the company for what they pay out. Meaning, your hourly rate, plus a % to cover insurance, etc.

Thus, the paycheck comes from the same place all the time, but rest assured, the airline isn't paying someone a red cent for union work. They are simply fronting the money.

alfaromeo

The first thing is to try to sift out the facts, since so many of your "facts" are not really factual.

First, 87 hours is the average pay hours, not block hours. If you have a week vacation in a month (21 hours) and fly 70 hours (many do) you have 91 pay hours. If you fly a 75 hour month and get a 10 hour green slip you have 95 pay hours. CQ training and many other items reflect pay hours and not block hours.

The 87 is not an opinion, it is a fact. Why doesn't DPA send someone to the ALPA office and review the data themselves? Wouldn't that eliminate this "did too, did not" rhetoric. I know, that would require unparking your butt from behind the keyboard and actually doing something.

Second, all committee members do not get paid what they can hold. The ones I can think off the top of my head are the four officers, the board of directors rep, and the negotiating committee. That should be 8 people (9 now that there are 4 negotiators). You and the DPA continue to spread this falsehood even though you have been corrected many, many times. It has gotten beyond the point of simple mistakes and now either goes into absolute incompetence or outright deception. Why can't the DPA simply stick to the facts, why do they have to try to deceive people?

Lastly, you mention the $1,000 stipend then throw in some $900 "lost per diem" and come up with $22,800. WTH over. Where did you invent this $900 payment? Hint 12 x $1,000 is $12,000 not $22,800. Given this $900 "loss" shouldn't the net be $100 a month or $1,200?

Maybe we can have a discussion over the real issues when you can at least get your facts straight. Until then, you are simply regurgitating propaganda that is outright false, you know it is false, and yet you continue to try to deceive people.

Carl Spackler

It's a great question. It would be far better for our union officials to be paid by union dues for EVERYTHING they do regarding representation of the members. That is currently not the case. When these guys drop trips for union work, this flight pay loss is paid by Delta management per our contract. Many of them drop every trip and haven't flown the line in a long time. All flight pay loss paid out by management should go out to all pilots as increased compensation, then our dues should be raised by the exact same amount. This way union guys would still get their full flight pay loss, but that money would be coming from the pilots they represent...not management.

The main issue here is our union is doing their level best to hide this stuff. They are incensed that it is even brought up as a topic because they don't want line pilots to know that many unelected MEC bureaucrats are making C2K level compensation while the rest of us are working under bankruptcy rates plus COLA.

ALPA knows they have a problem here, but they don't think it's quite bad enough to vote in the DPA...thus they continue to stonewall and hide.

Carl

Carl Spackler

You and the other unelected MEC bureaucrats have been asked many times to post this data, but you've always refused. There is almost NO possibility that this number could be correct. But if by some chance it IS correct, it would only be because of our "winner take all" process of green slipping where only the very senior in category get these huge windfalls. A small percentage get ~300 hours of pay per month while the rest of us get 70 hours on reserve or less if you're a schedule holder.

I'm fairly senior in category and I've NEVER been awarded a green slip despite my bidding for them. If 87 hours of pay is the average for Delta pilots, it's only because of the huge windfall earned by the very, very senior. But even at that, I think 87 hours is absolute BS. Love for you to prove me wrong by posting the data.

Carl

80ktsClamp

Carl- If you take my gross earnings for the year (including profit sharing and per diem) and divide them by my weighted hourly average for my fleet change and longevity increase, I "average" around 92 hours a month. I didn't get a single green slip this year and only held a line once.

If they are including profit sharing and per diem and what not, 87 may not be that much of a stretch, but it is highly misleading in the way it is stated.

alfaromeo

Carl, you need to use your seniority to non rev down to Atlanta and review the data. First, people's pay information is confidential and there are serious issues with putting even de-identified data out in the public. That will never happen. Second, there are twelve months worth of data for 11,000 plus active pilots. Exactly how should I publish it?

Go review the data, let us know what you find out. I can't publish the data so we are stuck in this endless loop until you go find out for yourself. As an alternative, go talk to your chief pilot, I believe they have the same data and they will give the same answer.

If you want to get into some N/S fight over overtime pay, I'm not biting. Make your input to your reps. This is a democracy, you get one vote like everyone else.

Carl Spackler

Hmmmm, profit sharing. I hadn't considered that. Maybe the unelected MEC bureaucrats forego their profit sharing since they're getting C2K pay.

Thanks for that insight.

Carl

PilotFrog

I have not been in the DPA/ALPA FPL discussion at all, but followed it lightly. On my own I wanted to do some research on how some of the committee chairman flying schedules looked like. I was appalled. Of the 3 Chairman and 2 assistants, one had an expired medical, one landing's recency was expired, and the others dropped all their trips for the 3 months I looked at. Aren't these people pilots?

Carl Spackler

I understand your concern, but that's not the problem I have personally with this. The problem I have is that many of these people are unelected, not to mention the "volunteers". We don't know what they do for their 87 to 92 hours per month at the highest category they can hold plus the 1,000 per month stipend plus expenses that are loosely accounted for. If these guys were junkyard dogs with regard to reversing scope decay and restoring our C2K contract, I'd be kicking in a little extra pay for them. Instead, we have just the opposite. Not even any TALK about reversing scope decay, and nothing but excuses as to why Delta can't afford C2K restoration for the pilots. But there's more. They do this while refusing to be transparent about who these people are and how much they are paid via flight pay loss. But there's more. Our union dues don't pay for this "activity"...management does.

So, unelected bureaucrats and volunteers operating with no transparency to manage pilot expectations downward while being paid for this activity by management. That's my concerns here.

Carl