scambo1

My read of APA right now is really a question of whether protecting the "pension" will pass the 51% sniff test...No more no less.

DAL 88 Driver

That is a mischaracterization of what both I and Carl have said. Go back and read what I've written with regards to objectives. What I am clearly saying is that the lack of setting and communicating the objective is a recipe for failure (or a dishonest way of hiding a very low objective, which would cause a major revolt with the pilot group). You are twisting my words into something I clearly did not say.


I'd have to see just how little that "something" is before I would agree to sign off on it. Sometimes, it is better to take nothing than to torpedo your objective.

Try this analogy. (It may not be perfect, but I think it makes the point.) Let's say I'm a car dealer and I have a car with a sticker price of $28,000. Let's say my dealer cost for that car is $18,000. A customer offers me $500 for the car, take it or leave it. He absolutely will not pay more... that's his final offer. Do I sell the car for $500? Or do I let him walk, and wait for another day and sell the car for a price it should realistically sell for? If I sell the car for $500, I'll have $500 that I wouldn't otherwise have but I'll also do tremendous damage to my value and credibility as a car dealer. Not to mention the fact that I made an incredibly foolish deal that loses a ton of money for me! I'm thinking my salesman on this deal, Mr. Pinneaple Guy, would have a very short career at DAL 88 Driver Motors!

Well, maybe the timing and/or some of the circumstances were different for APA? Maybe some of their tactics were not very effective. It doesn't mean their objective was bad/unachievable and their commitment to their objective was unwarranted and/or inappropriate.

Karnak

At that rate, Tim and Seham will have the 50% they're after in no time!

Then our pilot group can start working on restoring the contract ALPA negotiated 10 years ago! A worthy goal.

scambo1

It is foolish to downplay the dissatisfaction with ALPA...But I believe in karma, now or later.

76drvr

Assume that car sold for $28,000 before the price of gas went up, or some other factor, doesn't really matter what it is, but today everyone else is advertising the same car for $22,000 and selling at $20,000 and therefore no one is stepping foot in your shop and the bank (NMB) won't give customers a loan ( release for self help) to purchase your cars for anything near $28,000 because your sale price is far above current book rate? Do you continue to demand $28,000? Or do you work within the bounds of the current market for that car?

gloopy

Nope.

I have the resolve to go as long as it takes in to the section 6 process up to and including a strike as long as it takes to end this 9-11 bankruptcy emergency contract. 5/4/4/4 is between break even and a pay cut. To get that 5/4/4/4 you have to reset your NMB clock to zero, meaning the next time you will be in the same predicament.

We need to go for a fair contract and be prepared for a devistating strike regardless of how long that takes.

If we take a 5/4/4/4 style deal when we are making big time profits, that's it. The career is capped. Forever. We will never make more. We will be dealing with a permanant 9-11 style bankrputcy contract for the rest of our careers. Some years breaking even with COLA, other years losing money to inflation anyway. No thanks. We need to have better resolve than that.

gloopy

The dealer next door is selling his for the full $28,000 and is the most profitable dealer long term in town with one of the best reputations for running a dealership. And that dealership's salesmen get a higher commission than the other one. If they could unionize, they'd probably expect parity.

Pineapple Guy

I can't overstate this strongly enough gloopy. THAT IS THE EXACT SAME THING APA HAS BEEN SAYING FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS. HOW IS THAT WORKING??

I completely agree with that paragraph. And if we were making big time profits, I'd be with you. But we're not. Dig into our financials a bit. We still have the highest debt of load of any carrier; we have tremendous pension exposure (still!), and we need a new fleet.

Look, I want C2K+COLA as much as the next guy. And I'm prepared to strike to get it if I thought it was obtainable. I just don't see a path to that in the current economic, political, and financial situation we find ourselves in. BTW, I WON'T sign for any 5/4/4/4; that was simply the comparison of our past 5 years with APAs. DAL can afford a LOT more than that, and I'm voting NO absent significant improvements.

Carl Spackler

I don't think any of us have said that "all you have to do is set the objective", but setting one is the single most important part of any strategy. Without one, you look unfocused and amateurish. Another extremely important part of the strategy is the negotiating environment as you correctly point out. APA didn't realize that the NMB had changed to an arbitration board until they were years down the road. They also made a poor case for restoration adjusted for inflation. We have a tremendous road map to a quick and lucrative contract using the SWAPA contract as leverage. First, we put the entire SWAPA contract on the table with very large increases in every section. By December of 2012 we methodically drop our position to the SWAPA contract plus 5% for the MD88 plus premiums based on larger aircraft capacity. That's our last best offer. Now the NMB is faced with an employee group who wants a small premium over their largest competitor. A competitor that is as profitable as we are.

I believe this strategy uses all of our best tools at our disposal in our fight against management and our struggle to show fairness and respect to the NMB. It is a winning strategy because it moves the process quickly.

Carl

Flying Monkey

Does anyone have the payscales from the pre C2K contract (I guess that would be contract 96)?