Delta Pilots Association
09-26-2010, 04:49 PM
#631
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
The main issue with scope relief the past 10 years was bankruptcy. Mgmt had a gun to everyone's heads and it was complete chaos. Of course it all started many years ago, but management successfully snuck a bomb into the center of the dam. We're now trying to use our fingertips to plug that problem.
Carl
09-26-2010, 04:51 PM
#632
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
You completely ignore your "power" in this problem. You took the job, and continue to work for wages that are badly damaging our profession.
If you want a job at a major, you definitely do not have the job for the right reasons - which I'm sure is now obvious to you. If you don't ever want to join a major, then it's a little more understandable.
Here's the problem. When you took that job, you are only ensuring that you stay there forever because you are diluting the chance for that Delta seat.
I hope that after reading this, you'll understand there is a lot more that you and regional pilots could do.
Carl
If you want a job at a major, you definitely do not have the job for the right reasons - which I'm sure is now obvious to you. If you don't ever want to join a major, then it's a little more understandable.
Here's the problem. When you took that job, you are only ensuring that you stay there forever because you are diluting the chance for that Delta seat.
I hope that after reading this, you'll understand there is a lot more that you and regional pilots could do.
Carl
Carl- Would you please tell me the % of civilian guys/gals hired this round that didn't come from a regional?
Facts only, please.
Look at the 2007/2008 round of hiring as well.
Afterwards, you may want to rethink your statement on cencal's decision to go to a regional with his longterm goal being to work for a legacy like us.
The system is what it is now and the up and comings have to go the route that is laid out. The FTDT changes, demise of the 50 seater, hopefully UAL/CAL's up coming contract and ours in 2012 are primarily what changing this system is going to take.
I spent 3 years at Pinnacle and averaged 60,000 a year my 3 years there.
09-26-2010, 05:40 PM
#634
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
09-26-2010, 05:55 PM
#635
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Oh.. and this and last hiring cycles (where there was zero flow through... the flow through had nothing to do with the ratio) civilians getting hired were better than 95% regional. It is extremely difficult for someone not 121 to get a job at Delta (or at Northwes).
I don't retract it at all. The gamble worked out for you, but it will not for most. You got your experience by damaging the majors and the pilot profession. I know it sounds harsh, but it's the truth.
I dare say that most regional folks couldn't "boast" of wages anywhere near that for their first three years. Hard to believe anyone could actually boast about being an airline pilot and making 60K.
Carl
Carl
Please entertain me with what you, the almighty, would have done.
09-26-2010, 06:42 PM
#636
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
I don't know about Delta, but that is totally inaccurate at NWA. Our scope cave-ins have all been due to either bankruptcy, or a strike where the company made it clear they would rather see the company die without it. I wished we would have called their bluff and see if they went ahead and killed the company. A majority of the pilots relented under the pressure. We absolutely NEVER decided that flying wasn't ours.
That's over simplistic in my opinion. The Delta membership is not the problem anymore...if it ever was. The other part of the unity equation that you're ignoring is that ALPA national has decided that their future is tied to the regionals because they've calculated that's where the growth is. Also, the lifers at the regionals know they are never going to a major and will continue to strive to gain more and more flying.
How do we handle those two parts of the unity equation?
Carl
That's over simplistic in my opinion. The Delta membership is not the problem anymore...if it ever was. The other part of the unity equation that you're ignoring is that ALPA national has decided that their future is tied to the regionals because they've calculated that's where the growth is. Also, the lifers at the regionals know they are never going to a major and will continue to strive to gain more and more flying.
How do we handle those two parts of the unity equation?
Carl
First we have to be honest. You have to be honest too:
(1) NWA's MEC SOLD scope. I have your ZipLines. Your MEC bragged they were the first to get "bargaining credits" for outsourcing flying. Our MEC's came to management BEFORE bankruptcy with outsourcing deals. These facts are reported in MEC publications and negotiator's notes that have surfaced. It was a concessionary environment, but the scope sales were held YEARS before bankruptcy filings.
(2) ALPA's President has NEVER refused to sign a mainline contract. If there is a conflict of interest, I challenge you to find the evidence of that in our negotiations, or our contract.
Carl, you are not alone in getting politics confused with facts. I'm not trying to be disrespectful.
Urban legends that lead to decertification drives frustrate me. I wish our pilots would bother to read & educate themselves. Then we would have the political support for the necessary reforms.
09-26-2010, 06:51 PM
#637
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Carl,
Money wise, it made more sense for me to remain at a regional than go to NWA when you were hiring. Part of the equation was the move & loss of a second income.
I'm older than 80kts clamp and was more senior than him. Classmates at my former regional still out earn me on the new DAL scale. (I break even when the 401 match is considered) They hold weekday flying at their favorite layovers while I'm the reserve plug in category who starts studying for a displacement with every AE.
Even if QOL is ignored, on pure money terms many pilots have to make the jump before age 37 to 40 to make the loss of longevity work out. For those trapped in holding by the (9/11, outsourcing, age 65) stagnation, it may simply not make sense on any level.
For me, only SWA, FedEx, DAL made sense. SWA never called, FedEx never drained the pool and DAL was in town. Otherwise, I'd have been a "lifer." There are worse fates than being a youngish senior Captain with very young, pretty, flight attendants, a six figure income and a new jet that would hold its own in a race to 410 with a 757.
Money wise, it made more sense for me to remain at a regional than go to NWA when you were hiring. Part of the equation was the move & loss of a second income.
I'm older than 80kts clamp and was more senior than him. Classmates at my former regional still out earn me on the new DAL scale. (I break even when the 401 match is considered) They hold weekday flying at their favorite layovers while I'm the reserve plug in category who starts studying for a displacement with every AE.
Even if QOL is ignored, on pure money terms many pilots have to make the jump before age 37 to 40 to make the loss of longevity work out. For those trapped in holding by the (9/11, outsourcing, age 65) stagnation, it may simply not make sense on any level.
For me, only SWA, FedEx, DAL made sense. SWA never called, FedEx never drained the pool and DAL was in town. Otherwise, I'd have been a "lifer." There are worse fates than being a youngish senior Captain with very young, pretty, flight attendants, a six figure income and a new jet that would hold its own in a race to 410 with a 757.
09-26-2010, 07:23 PM
#638
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Carl,
Money wise, it made more sense for me to remain at a regional than go to NWA when you were hiring. Part of the equation was the move & loss of a second income.
I'm older than 80kts clamp and was more senior than him. Classmates at my former regional still out earn me on the new DAL scale. (I break even when the 401 match is considered) They hold weekday flying at their favorite layovers while I'm the reserve plug in category who starts studying for a displacement with every AE.
Even if QOL is ignored, on pure money terms many pilots have to make the jump before age 37 to 40 to make the loss of longevity work out. For those trapped in holding by the (9/11, outsourcing, age 65) stagnation, it may simply not make sense on any level.
For me, only SWA, FedEx, DAL made sense. SWA never called, FedEx never drained the pool and DAL was in town. Otherwise, I'd have been a "lifer." There are worse fates than being a youngish senior Captain with very young, pretty, flight attendants, a six figure income and a new jet that would hold its own in a race to 410 with a 757.
Money wise, it made more sense for me to remain at a regional than go to NWA when you were hiring. Part of the equation was the move & loss of a second income.
I'm older than 80kts clamp and was more senior than him. Classmates at my former regional still out earn me on the new DAL scale. (I break even when the 401 match is considered) They hold weekday flying at their favorite layovers while I'm the reserve plug in category who starts studying for a displacement with every AE.
Even if QOL is ignored, on pure money terms many pilots have to make the jump before age 37 to 40 to make the loss of longevity work out. For those trapped in holding by the (9/11, outsourcing, age 65) stagnation, it may simply not make sense on any level.
For me, only SWA, FedEx, DAL made sense. SWA never called, FedEx never drained the pool and DAL was in town. Otherwise, I'd have been a "lifer." There are worse fates than being a youngish senior Captain with very young, pretty, flight attendants, a six figure income and a new jet that would hold its own in a race to 410 with a 757.
09-26-2010, 07:41 PM
#639
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Wow, I just looked, as a 2000 hire at XJT I would be on 11 year Captain pay right now still making $6 less per hour than I do in my 3rd year as a lowly 88 FO. Thats before you add in all of the other stuff and QOL. I'd have to be there 14 years to equal year 3 pay. Heck, top pay at 18 years is $97/hr.
09-26-2010, 08:17 PM
#640
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Carl,
Money wise, it made more sense for me to remain at a regional than go to NWA when you were hiring. Part of the equation was the move & loss of a second income.
I'm older than 80kts clamp and was more senior than him. Classmates at my former regional still out earn me on the new DAL scale. (I break even when the 401 match is considered) They hold weekday flying at their favorite layovers while I'm the reserve plug in category who starts studying for a displacement with every AE.
Even if QOL is ignored, on pure money terms many pilots have to make the jump before age 37 to 40 to make the loss of longevity work out. For those trapped in holding by the (9/11, outsourcing, age 65) stagnation, it may simply not make sense on any level.
For me, only SWA, FedEx, DAL made sense. SWA never called, FedEx never drained the pool and DAL was in town. Otherwise, I'd have been a "lifer." There are worse fates than being a youngish senior Captain with very young, pretty, flight attendants, a six figure income and a new jet that would hold its own in a race to 410 with a 757.
Money wise, it made more sense for me to remain at a regional than go to NWA when you were hiring. Part of the equation was the move & loss of a second income.
I'm older than 80kts clamp and was more senior than him. Classmates at my former regional still out earn me on the new DAL scale. (I break even when the 401 match is considered) They hold weekday flying at their favorite layovers while I'm the reserve plug in category who starts studying for a displacement with every AE.
Even if QOL is ignored, on pure money terms many pilots have to make the jump before age 37 to 40 to make the loss of longevity work out. For those trapped in holding by the (9/11, outsourcing, age 65) stagnation, it may simply not make sense on any level.
For me, only SWA, FedEx, DAL made sense. SWA never called, FedEx never drained the pool and DAL was in town. Otherwise, I'd have been a "lifer." There are worse fates than being a youngish senior Captain with very young, pretty, flight attendants, a six figure income and a new jet that would hold its own in a race to 410 with a 757.
It's gonna be ok, Bar. And holy crap I can't imagine spending a career in the Canadian Space Shuttle unless the company that signed my paycheck was the one that ran the flying... not to mention paid much better.
Think about what you're comparing it to... in the right seat just barely being out earned by a 10 year captain. Think about where you'll (probably) be at 10 years longevity at DL? We'll be kicking geezers 800 a year then.
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