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08-13-2011, 08:20 AM

#6011

Bucking Bar

Can't abide NAI

Joined APC: Jun 2007

Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler

Posts: 12,049

How would / could DPA deal with "big" issues, like cabotage, multi crew pilot licensure, unmanned aircraft ... issues which need to be addressed with the legitimacy of being "the" pilots' union?

Unions get their power directly from those they represent. ALPA represents more than 53,000 pilots at 39 airlines just here and in Canada. DPA does not have that tool in it's tool box. By trying to leverage a "conflict of interest" into a representational "raison d' etre" the DPA is more about building a fence than building bridges.

p.s. Zoomie, I apologize to the French.

08-13-2011, 08:21 AM

#6012

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rather B Fishin

I'm not missing it. In a world of absolutes, white/black you are correct. The lawyer gets what the client wants = success. Unfortunately we need to put their wants and successes in context. Just because you get what you want doesn't make it the right thing or the smart thing. IE, Octomom and Michael Jackson. At some point a Doctor should have told Octomom, "you're a person, not a rabbit". At some point a Doctor should have told MJ, "if you want a smaller a nose, I'm gonna have to use my kids Mr. Potato head parts".

Again, I'm NOT making value judgments one way or the other at USAPA. I'm simply saying that the strategy implemented by the Seham firm on behalf of USAPA pilots has worked thus far. USAPA pilots see it as a huge victory. USAPA has the right to legal representation, and have that representation fight hard for them. That's what's happening here. I like that general concept, and feel it is critical in business. What I detest is what ALPA lawyers did in the case of TWA. TWA pilots thought they had a law firm representing them, and they found out otherwise. That's something that must never be allowed. Fortunately, a jury just agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rather B Fishin

You're also forgetting the other side of the equation. The West side. Only 60% of Seeham's clients are happy with his success............. Does that still make it ok?

The west pilots fly for a separate operation where they make more money and have better contract provisions than the east pilots. Whether the west side is happy or not is immaterial. This particular battle is the east pilot's battle. If the east pilot's battle kept the west pilots from negotiating to better their conditions, then the west pilots would have a right to be unhappy. That didn't happen. In fact, just the opposite happened.

Carl

08-13-2011, 08:23 AM

#6013

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

REAL FACT: We just did a Joint Pilot Working Agreement which included equity and raises that put us near the top of our profession.

Totally incorrect. We are nowhere near the W-2's of Southwest pilots, or UPS pilots, or FedEx pilots. Not even close.

Carl

08-13-2011, 08:26 AM

#6014

zoomiezombie

Gets Weekends Off

Joined APC: Jul 2011

Position: 73 lifer

Posts: 130

Love Charlie Sheen jokes, and the lawyer is not "my" lawyer. I'm agnostic too.

The picture seemed to intentionally capitalize on the fact the boy looked a little silly flexing as he did.

If you think I'm being too sensitive, you might want to imagine how you would feel if you had a child that all the other children laugh at for an entire lifetime.

Picture it for one minute solid.

Now, handicap jokes seem a little less funny now, don't they?

It's not a big deal and I'm sorry if I seem to be hanging a guilt trip on you unfairly. It's a pet peeve of mine when people are blessed with all their faculties and make light of others not as blessed.

08-13-2011, 08:26 AM

#6015

Bucking Bar

Can't abide NAI

Joined APC: Jun 2007

Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler

Posts: 12,049

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Totally incorrect. We are nowhere near the W-2's of Southwest pilots, or UPS pilots, or FedEx pilots. Not even close.

Carl

I'll grant you SWA, but we also have to consider management buffoonery. SWA did not blow over $50,000,000,000 on RJ's. (25 billion last 12 years, nearly that much until the expiration of current contracts).

None of the airlines you listed have the business model of the typical legacy carrier.

08-13-2011, 08:29 AM

#6016

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

The writer supposes what Chairman O'Malley meant. I've asked O'Malley to clarify and he told me that he was waiting on the direction given in the pilot survey.

Why is he waiting for the survey? He and ALPA national are not waiting for the survey to talk very effectively about the dangers of cabotage, subsidized foreign carriers, etc. Dangers are dangers, and they should be discussed in real time.

UNLESS...you don't think scope erosion is a danger. That sir, is the crux of this matter.

Carl

08-13-2011, 08:29 AM

#6017

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined APC: Mar 2009

Position: ATL MD-88A

Posts: 2,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

I hold down THREE jobs. Still, I can't make up for the $20,000 bath I took in the markets last week.

No, I'm not thrilled with my pay, but realistically, I'm doing better than 80% of US Air. In this market (both as Delta pilots and in our personal dealings) we have to deal with reality. Assumptions, like an 8% return on investment (4% after inflation), are probably gone. Further, you may find yourself as the one wage earner in your immediate family, or extended family. Our neighbors on either side don't really have jobs and are now picking up contract gigs here and there while letting their other real estate investments (which were speculative) go back to banks.

Point being, a lack of pragmatism and care can hurt a guy a lot worse in this economy than in typical times when errors could be caught back up. We do not need a repeat of last decade. Would I like a 35% raise? Sure. Would I like a 35% raise which would nearly certainly result in the loss of my job?

My preference is to work with Delta to find a model by which Delta pilots perform Delta flying. I'm fine with reasonable wages and I'll enjoy a more than 35% raise by upgrading and getting back in the command seat. There is potential for a win / win here, by our doing our flying more productively with less managerial redundancy.

Fear based decisions are primarily what caused the market to do what it did this week. Sounds like you're so afraid of what a pay raise might do to Delta (and subsequently to Delta pilot jobs) that you're willing to settle for mediocrity on pay. Sounds like the mindset of our MEC, as illustrated by all the communications we've been receiving lately. (BTW, I disagree that a restorative pay increase would cost Delta pilot jobs.)

There is always risk in life. And never taking risk means never achieving anything. As pilots, we're naturally risk averse. And I'm certainly not advocating throwing caution to the wind. But IMO we're going to have to make an aggressive stand to restore our profession and our careers. If not now, when? The longer we wait, the harder it's going to be. (We've already waited too long as it is.)

Or you could settle for mediocrity... and a career worth about HALF of what was reasonable to expect when you got into this in the first place.

08-13-2011, 08:32 AM

#6018

Bucking Bar

Can't abide NAI

Joined APC: Jun 2007

Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler

Posts: 12,049

Quote:

Originally Posted by zoomiezombie

Love Charlie Sheen jokes, and he's not my lawyer. I'm agnostic too.

The picture seemed to intentionally capitalize on the fact the boy looked a little silly.

Now, handicap jokes seem a little less funny now, don't they?

Mea Culpa ... it was the union mustache that made his picture stand out from the rest.

Sorry (sincerely) for being insensitive. There are two ways of looking at that. One is, the child is handicapped. The other is that they remain at probably the best age their entire life. Great, loving, blissfully unaware and for the most part, very happy, kids.

08-13-2011, 08:33 AM

#6019

Carl Spackler

Back on TDY

Joined APC: Apr 2008

Position: 747-400 Captain

Posts: 12,487

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

In MY OPINION, the larger constraint is the $30,000,000,000 in deals Delta has signed with the corporations who provide these services. DCI, financially, is a bigger deal for management than our contract. The DCI deals include the whole shebang ... aircraft acquisitions, operations, management and somewhere down the line, pilot costs too. Asking management to cancel a deal may simply be something management can not legally do.

I don't think anyone here is asking for that. Many of us are asking that these agreements be allowed to expire and that management agrees not to sign any additional such contracts. That would not only "hold the line" on scope, but it would take it back over a reasonable amount of time. ALPA/DALPA is not even discussing this in any way shape or form.

Carl

08-13-2011, 08:34 AM

#6020

DAL 88 Driver

At home on the maddog!

Joined APC: Mar 2009

Position: ATL MD-88A

Posts: 2,874

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

I don't think anyone here is asking for that. Many of us are asking that these agreements be allowed to expire and that management agrees not to sign any additional such contracts. That would not only "hold the line" on scope, but it would take it back over a reasonable amount of time. ALPA/DALPA is not even discussing this in any way shape or form.

Carl

And they won't. For obvious reasons.