Delta Pilots Association
08-12-2011, 11:32 PM
#5991
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Nice post, I'm just wondering about the two points you made above.
Isn't the new United seeking to limit 70/76 seaters? I might be wrong, but I thought that they were somehow negotiating to restrict scope, cut back on the number of larger RJs and filed some grievance over it. Anyone got the facts on that?
Your second point is interesting, what happens if they don't reach consensus? Was there consensus at United?
Isn't the new United seeking to limit 70/76 seaters? I might be wrong, but I thought that they were somehow negotiating to restrict scope, cut back on the number of larger RJs and filed some grievance over it. Anyone got the facts on that?
Your second point is interesting, what happens if they don't reach consensus? Was there consensus at United?
Just for starters, there are hardcore followers here of the DPA side, ALPA side, and those like myself who fall somewhere in between. My personal conclusion is that the ALPA types are too entrenched and that the methods of actually passing reform are too weighted toward reform not actually happening. I'm not particularly convinced of the DPA yet either....
Anyhoo... I'm eagerly awaiting the outcome of the 50+ seater stuff over at UCAL. Personally it seems like that they are going to hold the line. I don't quite buy the conflict of interest conspiracy.
Each unit typically does their own thing... the problem with our alpa unit is more too simple- inbreeding (as outlined in my first paragraph). As far as national... it is the most inbred of the inbred all shaking each others hands and smiling as another bar is lowered.
08-12-2011, 11:49 PM
#5992
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: C47 PIC/747-400 SIC
Posts: 2,100
Welcome to the Delta forums away from the Delta forums!
Just for starters, there are hardcore followers here of the DPA side, ALPA side, and those like myself who fall somewhere in between. My personal conclusion is that the ALPA types are too entrenched and that the methods of actually passing reform are too weighted toward reform not actually happening. I'm not particularly convinced of the DPA yet either....
Anyhoo... I'm eagerly awaiting the outcome of the 50+ seater stuff over at UCAL. Personally it seems like that they are going to hold the line. I don't quite buy the conflict of interest conspiracy.
Each unit typically does their own thing... the problem with our alpa unit is more too simple- inbreeding (as outlined in my first paragraph). As far as national... it is the most inbred of the inbred all shaking each others hands and smiling as another bar is lowered.
Just for starters, there are hardcore followers here of the DPA side, ALPA side, and those like myself who fall somewhere in between. My personal conclusion is that the ALPA types are too entrenched and that the methods of actually passing reform are too weighted toward reform not actually happening. I'm not particularly convinced of the DPA yet either....
Anyhoo... I'm eagerly awaiting the outcome of the 50+ seater stuff over at UCAL. Personally it seems like that they are going to hold the line. I don't quite buy the conflict of interest conspiracy.
Each unit typically does their own thing... the problem with our alpa unit is more too simple- inbreeding (as outlined in my first paragraph). As far as national... it is the most inbred of the inbred all shaking each others hands and smiling as another bar is lowered.
08-13-2011, 03:56 AM
#5993
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Here's what you keep missing. In the eyes of USAPA pilots, they are NOT wasting their money. Their strategy (aided by the legal help of Seham's firm) has kept that seniority list off their property for years now. You and I may not agree with that strategy, but you must admit that so far it has worked.
Carl
Carl
It doesn't take ANY lawyer to keep the Nicolau from being implemented. All USAPA has to do is drag their feet in negotiations, something they are doing. Seham gets no credit for that, as they're not needed for that.
The ONLY reason they need Seham is to attempt to legally overturn Nicolau -- and to date, Seham has failed at every opportunity in that quest. But, at least they HAVE made a ton of money "trying"...
08-13-2011, 05:39 AM
#5994
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
OK, I'm a new guy just looking to get a little more info and obviously playing catch-up here. Who is SSMP, who is AICA and what's up with a law firm whose clients are both labor and management? And I suspect there's a USAPA connection of some sort. Sorry if I'm slowing things down a little.
76;
Here is my nutshell synopsis for you to attempt to bring you up to speed...I'm not a big fan of lawyers so I will try to keep it unbiased, but I am not able to keep my opinion completely out of the discussion:
ALPA's legal team's scope focus is to increase ALPA's membership roll, be it regional or mainline.
Seham's legal focus is to take the side of their client, they are an independant law firm.
Both legal teams have had wins, losses, and (depending upon you viewpoint) questionable/ controversial dealings.
There are two sides in this debate the ALPA lovers (aka apologists) and the pro-DPA/anti-ALPA (donut holes). At this point neither side will concede anything to the other and in fact, both sides avoid taking an objective viewpoint.
DAL scope is full of holes. When you read the contract, it appears to be written (in respect to DCI) with certain restrictions that (at this point) ALPA legal says are non-enforceable. WRT Alaska, there is a blank check. WRT codeshares there is a blank check. WRT to skyteam, there are quid pro quos that seem to enhance both partners. (This is very simplified). The crux of the scope debate is "intent." If ALPA legal intended for there to be so many holes in the language, what good are they...if they intended for scope to be restrictive, why aren't we fighting for it.
Apologists and donut holes both want more restrictive scope. Apologists want to do it within the framework of ALPA. Donuts feel ALPA has had ample opportunity to prove itself incompetent and at this point want to just fire ALPA.
ALPA is a business, not a union. They have recently spun off aeromedical and (I believe) are in the process of spinning of central air safety (I could be wrong). What this means is that some of ALPAs (initial) core competencies will be available on the open market for independant unions to hire.
ALPA recently lost a DFR lawsuit brought by TWA. ALPA also lost a lawsuit from its own employees for attempted union busting. DPA has no track record.
DPA will not be bounded by any of the intra-alpa restrictions which alpa airlines must comply with (conferring on scope). DPA would only represent Delta pilots.
There are arguements on both sides of the aisle wrt to best way to move forward. The unity arguement attempts to explain the process by which all RJ flying comes to the mainline. The big airplane growth group sees the issue of big jet outsourcing thru codeshare as the real threat. I agree with both groups.
Neither side of the fence has made a cogent arguement as to why DPA is any different than DALPA without ALPA. This is where the namecalling comes in to deflect the issue.
Just my opinion, but I've tried to be unbiased.
08-13-2011, 05:39 AM
#5995
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
Here's what you keep missing. In the eyes of USAPA pilots, they are NOT wasting their money. Their strategy (aided by the legal help of Seham's firm) has kept that seniority list off their property for years now. You and I may not agree with that strategy, but you must admit that so far it has worked.
Carl
Carl
You're also forgetting the other side of the equation. The West side. Only 60% of Seeham's clients are happy with his success............. Does that still make it ok?
08-13-2011, 06:11 AM
#5996
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Nice post, I'm just wondering about the two points you made above.
Isn't the new United seeking to limit 70/76 seaters? I might be wrong, but I thought that they were somehow negotiating to restrict scope, cut back on the number of larger RJs and filed some grievance over it. Anyone got the facts on that?
Your second point is interesting, what happens if they don't reach consensus? Was there consensus at United?
Isn't the new United seeking to limit 70/76 seaters? I might be wrong, but I thought that they were somehow negotiating to restrict scope, cut back on the number of larger RJs and filed some grievance over it. Anyone got the facts on that?
Your second point is interesting, what happens if they don't reach consensus? Was there consensus at United?
Thanks, but those weren't my points. I was just posting an email I received from DPA last night. Those were DPA's points.
Oh... and welcome to APC!
08-13-2011, 06:11 AM
#5997
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
Interesting update I received today via email:
__________________________________________
In the most recent "Touch & Gos" dated 8/11/11, the DAL MEC Communications Committee attempts to deny the existence of regional carrier impact on our contract.
"ALPA previously settled a lawsuit commonly referred to as the "Ford/Cooksey lawsuit." As part of this settlement, changes were made to the ALPA Administrative Manual as approved by the court, designed to strengthen ALPA's ability to negotiate scope. ...
FACT: Full Section 6 negotiations have not occurred since Ford-Cooksey was settled in 2008 and the changes to the Administrative Manual implemented. There is, therefore, no language that could have been affected.......yet.
Read the facts and think about the implications!
__________________________________________
In the most recent "Touch & Gos" dated 8/11/11, the DAL MEC Communications Committee attempts to deny the existence of regional carrier impact on our contract.
"ALPA previously settled a lawsuit commonly referred to as the "Ford/Cooksey lawsuit." As part of this settlement, changes were made to the ALPA Administrative Manual as approved by the court, designed to strengthen ALPA's ability to negotiate scope. ...
FACT: Full Section 6 negotiations have not occurred since Ford-Cooksey was settled in 2008 and the changes to the Administrative Manual implemented. There is, therefore, no language that could have been affected.......yet.
Read the facts and think about the implications!
FACT: At an ATL MEC meeting several months ago, Captain O'Malley, MEC Chairman, stated that:
"All changes to scope are off the table."
This statement has two facets, one of which you may not be considering. Captain O'Malley stressed that ALL changes, both negative or positive, are off the table. While he seems to be unwilling to let any further seats go to the regional carriers, he is also saying that he is unwilling to regain any seats from the regional carriers as well.
"All changes to scope are off the table."
This statement has two facets, one of which you may not be considering. Captain O'Malley stressed that ALL changes, both negative or positive, are off the table. While he seems to be unwilling to let any further seats go to the regional carriers, he is also saying that he is unwilling to regain any seats from the regional carriers as well.
In MY OPINION, the larger constraint is the $30,000,000,000 in deals Delta has signed with the corporations who provide these services. DCI, financially, is a bigger deal for management than our contract. The DCI deals include the whole shebang ... aircraft acquisitions, operations, management and somewhere down the line, pilot costs too. Asking management to cancel a deal may simply be something management can not legally do.
Hence, I want ALPA to focus on PILOTS not airplanes. But, that is another story.
1. Participate in the upcoming Contract Survey promised by the MEC in September. In that survey, make all of your desired contract change proposals to the MEC plus this:
"I request the DAL MEC pursue a 20% reduction in allowable regional carrier airframes that are capable of, or currently contain, 70 or more seats to be completed within no later than two years from the date of signing of our next contract."
This reasonable request is well within the capability of the company to comply with, but outside of the capability of the MEC to obtain due to the potential of lawsuits from the regional carriers that will be harmed by this type of maneuver. DPA is aware that regaining flying under DPA leadership will be a process of many steps ....
2. Submit resolutions to the same at all Council meetings between now and the member ratification of the new contract.
3. Go get one more Authorization Card (3,300 DPA Members x 2 = 6,600 which produces a vote) and do away with this nonsense permanently.
Here is the true bottom line: The DAL MEC Negotiating Committee IS REQUIRED pack up and head to National and sit down with all the Negotiating Committees of the regional carriers that serve DAL, PRIOR TO beginning talks with management. They are REQUIRED to "work with each other to develop a consensus on proposals".Read the facts and think about the implications!
"I request the DAL MEC pursue a 20% reduction in allowable regional carrier airframes that are capable of, or currently contain, 70 or more seats to be completed within no later than two years from the date of signing of our next contract."
This reasonable request is well within the capability of the company to comply with, but outside of the capability of the MEC to obtain due to the potential of lawsuits from the regional carriers that will be harmed by this type of maneuver. DPA is aware that regaining flying under DPA leadership will be a process of many steps ....
2. Submit resolutions to the same at all Council meetings between now and the member ratification of the new contract.
3. Go get one more Authorization Card (3,300 DPA Members x 2 = 6,600 which produces a vote) and do away with this nonsense permanently.
Here is the true bottom line: The DAL MEC Negotiating Committee IS REQUIRED pack up and head to National and sit down with all the Negotiating Committees of the regional carriers that serve DAL, PRIOR TO beginning talks with management. They are REQUIRED to "work with each other to develop a consensus on proposals".Read the facts and think about the implications!
08-13-2011, 06:20 AM
#5998
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
This is a good example of how we shoot ourselves in the foot. It's just like when LM, in one of his final letters as MEC Chairman, crowed that we had reached a milestone in that we were back to our pre-bankruptcy pay. Totally leaves out the fact that we took a 32.5% pay cut PRIOR to bankruptcy and that our pay was/is nowhere close to being restored. Technically, it was an accurate statement (just like yours), but it is extremely misleading. Unless you're happy with where we are now. And maybe YOU are, but if that's the case, I think you're in a very small minority.
08-13-2011, 07:30 AM
#5999
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
This is a good example of how we shoot ourselves in the foot. It's just like when LM, in one of his final letters as MEC Chairman, crowed that we had reached a milestone in that we were back to our pre-bankruptcy pay. Totally leaves out the fact that we took a 32.5% pay cut PRIOR to bankruptcy and that our pay was/is nowhere close to being restored. Technically, it was an accurate statement (just like yours), but it is extremely misleading. Unless you're happy with where we are now. And maybe YOU are, but if that's the case, I think you're in a very small minority.
No, I'm not thrilled with my pay, but realistically, I'm doing better than 80% of US Air. In this market (both as Delta pilots and in our personal dealings) we have to deal with reality. Assumptions, like an 8% return on investment (4% after inflation), are probably gone. Further, you may find yourself as the one wage earner in your immediate family, or extended family. Our neighbors on either side don't really have jobs and are now picking up contract gigs here and there while letting their other real estate investments (which were speculative) go back to banks.
Point being, a lack of pragmatism and care can hurt a guy a lot worse in this economy than in typical times when errors could be caught back up. We do not need a repeat of last decade. Would I like a 35% raise? Sure. Would I like a 35% raise which would nearly certainly result in the loss of my job?
My preference is to work with Delta to find a model by which Delta pilots perform Delta flying. I'm fine with reasonable wages and I'll enjoy a more than 35% raise by upgrading and getting back in the command seat. There is potential for a win / win here, by our doing our flying more productively with less managerial redundancy.
08-13-2011, 07:50 AM
#6000
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
I hold down THREE jobs. Still, I can't make up for the $20,000 bath I took in the markets last week.
No, I'm not thrilled with my pay, but realistically, I'm doing better than 80% of US Air. In this market (both as Delta pilots and in our personal dealings) we have to deal with reality. Assumptions, like an 8% return on investment (4% after inflation), are probably gone. Further, you may find yourself as the one wage earner in your immediate family, or extended family. Our neighbors on either side don't really have jobs and are now picking up contract gigs here and there while letting their other real estate investments (which were speculative) go back to banks.
Point being, a lack of pragmatism and care can hurt a guy a lot worse in this economy than in typical times when errors could be caught back up. We do not need a repeat of last decade. Would I like a 35% raise? Sure. Would I like a 35% raise which would nearly certainly result in the loss of my job?
My preference is to work with Delta to find a model by which Delta pilots perform Delta flying. I'm fine with reasonable wages and I'll enjoy a more than 35% raise by upgrading and getting back in the command seat. There is potential for a win / win here, by our doing our flying more productively with less managerial redundancy.
No, I'm not thrilled with my pay, but realistically, I'm doing better than 80% of US Air. In this market (both as Delta pilots and in our personal dealings) we have to deal with reality. Assumptions, like an 8% return on investment (4% after inflation), are probably gone. Further, you may find yourself as the one wage earner in your immediate family, or extended family. Our neighbors on either side don't really have jobs and are now picking up contract gigs here and there while letting their other real estate investments (which were speculative) go back to banks.
Point being, a lack of pragmatism and care can hurt a guy a lot worse in this economy than in typical times when errors could be caught back up. We do not need a repeat of last decade. Would I like a 35% raise? Sure. Would I like a 35% raise which would nearly certainly result in the loss of my job?
My preference is to work with Delta to find a model by which Delta pilots perform Delta flying. I'm fine with reasonable wages and I'll enjoy a more than 35% raise by upgrading and getting back in the command seat. There is potential for a win / win here, by our doing our flying more productively with less managerial redundancy.
Bar;
I dont think anyone wants to price himself out of employment...or stated differently price the bottom of the list out of employment.
Pragmatically, how is a crew sitting in the pilot lounge for 4 hours while another crew does an orf turn productive. How is a jet swap from A to C concourse productive? How is changing your F/A on a rotation productive?
How does southwest pay well, but we cant because we wouldnt be competitve make sense?
How does guaranteeing outsourced carrier profits mean we cant do that flying in house at the same price?
Dont answer any of this stuff, we know the answers. Dont fear the unknown, embrace it that is how you will get stronger in this economy.
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