Delta Pilots Association
09-24-2010, 08:13 AM
#562
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
So, when you look at the amount of dues money collected from our 12,000+ pilots, how much of that money is being sucked away by other costs at ALPA National? How much of it is actually benefiting (directly or indirectly) our pilot group? I'm sure that the cost of these particular services would be higher individually with DPA, but without a whole bunch of our money going towards things that do not benefit us, I suspect we can afford those increased costs and our overall costs might even be considerably lower. As I understand it, one of the big objectives with DPA is to get better services than what we are getting now. That, of course, is debatable and should be part of the debate...
Last edited by DAL 88 Driver; 09-24-2010 at 08:59 AM. Reason: clarity
09-24-2010, 09:03 AM
#563
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Maybe maybe not. As we have stated DAL or UAUA pilots opting out of ALPA would more than likely cause the implosion of the organization. They may be able to spin off the services potion of National but you cannot even use the fees that other airlines pay for these services as a litmus to what our fees would be. (They pay a lot)
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.
Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
To compare apples to apples:
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Other General:
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)
4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?
No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.
Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
To compare apples to apples:
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Other General:
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)
4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?
No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
09-24-2010, 09:17 AM
#564
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Maybe maybe not. As we have stated DAL or UAUA pilots opting out of ALPA would more than likely cause the implosion of the organization. They may be able to spin off the services potion of National but you cannot even use the fees that other airlines pay for these services as a litmus to what our fees would be. (They pay a lot)
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.
Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
To compare apples to apples:
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Other General:
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)
4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?
No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.
Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
To compare apples to apples:
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Other General:
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)
4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?
No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
If they were smart.....they would address many of these concerns prior to that. They definitely would have to after they have forced a vote, assuming they get that far.
People are rightfully disappointed with ALPA and DALPA. One of the main reasons lies with communications. If DPA were shrewd, they would come forward and capitalize on ALPA's weakness with stellar communication. Hopefully they will and we will be able to make a measured analysis.
Possibly a DPA affiliation with his group would solve a lot of those ?'s
Home | Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations
09-24-2010, 09:49 AM
#565
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Maybe maybe not. As we have stated DAL or UAUA pilots opting out of ALPA would more than likely cause the implosion of the organization. They may be able to spin off the services potion of National but you cannot even use the fees that other airlines pay for these services as a litmus to what our fees would be. (They pay a lot)
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.
Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
To compare apples to apples:
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Other General:
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)
4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?
No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
If you wanted services and a presence that National does provide, lets try to compare apples to apples.
Lobbying:
1)How much do you think that DPA will have to pay to get the same access that ALPA and DALPA have now with everyone in DC?
2) Is DPA going to have an office in DC so that we can work the issues every day with face to face meetings? That costs money, and without the access and influence will wain. If they do not and want the same level of lobbying and access to occur without owning structures, they will be paying though the nose for apartments or house leases or payments, much like national. I am sure no one would willingly spend their own money move their families up there to do this for the DAL pilots? (ALPA by laws state that no volunteer should be out their own money for their work)
Support: (aeromed, legal, et al)
To compare apples to apples:
1)What would our fees be for the same number of full time attorneys we use in a non section six, plus all of the fees for section six add up to if you would 1) Pay a firm to do it will billable hours, or 2) Retain them as full time?
2) What would a realistic cost be for aero med now that that support network is for profit and a stand alone?
3) What would the costs be of offering insurance policies to our pilots that ALPA currently does? Less pilots means less pooling?
Other General:
1) What would the cost be in the form of a assessment to get the necessary funds to create a 20-30 million dollar MCF?
2) If we left ALPA would there be any incentive for ALPA carriers and pilots that we backed away from to not fly struck work? (Not fear carl a real question)
3) Would it help or hurt our relationship with the ALPA AF/KLM pilots? (There are two unions at AF and one is ALPA)
4) Looking at APA or IPA they have Presidents and VP's along with a lot of support positions as well. Similar layers to ALPA but all paid for by one group. Are we going to do that?
5) Representational Structure? APA does not have status reps as we see them. Are they going to be mandated to be CAPT and FO reps? In MIA they are all Captains.
6) Are we going to have our own EFA committee? We currently use Nationals to crunch data?
No sniping, I want to know the questions to these answers. There is generally a cost savings associated with consolidation of resources. Many state that the independent unions have cheaper dues. Do they pay more assessments more often? Does each pilot pay an add on fee for the extra services? Are we going to asses our pilots added fees initially? These and many other questions need to be answered before a true decision is made.
A lot of you are stating that this thing was only started on Sept 7, 2010. No true. It was "incorporated" on that date. It has been around a lot longer than that. Lets start to see some structure. Who know I may be really impressed, but I am not signing on for a chance that we may elect to opt out of ALPA without a clear structure, a clear plan for what ALPA now offers, ect. I know you will retort and state that this is coming, but what if the answers are that it is more expensive and we still have less influence?
Just questions I am pondering? They do need to be asked.
09-24-2010, 01:01 PM
#566
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
So tell me this then, is the cost of these teams proportional with the dues that each airline pays? IOW, when (for example) ASA negotiates their contract, are they paying these teams a fee commensurate with their dues? Or once again, are the legacy airlines footing the bill for that? Sounds like going out with a FA crew in Rome to me. I had a slice of pizza and a beer, they had lobster and Chardonnay, yet we pay an equal anmount... funy how that always works out...
09-24-2010, 01:36 PM
#567
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
RA RA RA yep those pesky regionals are draining all the money out of ALPA, RA RA RA
Sorry to interrupt with a dose of reality, but ALPA's biggest expense has been legal judgments and settlements. For the most part, all of these expenses have either been brought by, or against, mainline bargaining groups (including our own, reference Miller v. ALPA). UAL just got us hit for $44,000,0000.00. While it has been a while, the original nuclear strike on our major contingency fund arose out of the Delta / Pan Am merger. ALPA has defended stuff as stupid as MEC members awarding themselves bonus money on United's ESOP and we probably don't really want to talk publicly on liabilities which started in ALPA owned condominiums (regional guys barely know those exist).
Of course a lot of those defense costs are part of ALPA's duty to represent pilots. The only reason I mention the egregious stuff is because those are costs the mainline pilots have generated.
What's amusing is to read the Skywest thread and read the reason they do not want to join ALPA is to have their dues money squandered on mainline pilots.
... ok, back to blaming everyone else for our problems ... sorry for the "noise."
Kind of reminds me of this clip (pardon the language) when Larry Flynt tells his lawyer "Don't be so melodramatic. You'll never quit. I'm your dream client, I'm more fun, I'm rich and I'm always in trouble." They guy had a point.
Larry's attorney quits
Sorry to interrupt with a dose of reality, but ALPA's biggest expense has been legal judgments and settlements. For the most part, all of these expenses have either been brought by, or against, mainline bargaining groups (including our own, reference Miller v. ALPA). UAL just got us hit for $44,000,0000.00. While it has been a while, the original nuclear strike on our major contingency fund arose out of the Delta / Pan Am merger. ALPA has defended stuff as stupid as MEC members awarding themselves bonus money on United's ESOP and we probably don't really want to talk publicly on liabilities which started in ALPA owned condominiums (regional guys barely know those exist).
Of course a lot of those defense costs are part of ALPA's duty to represent pilots. The only reason I mention the egregious stuff is because those are costs the mainline pilots have generated.
What's amusing is to read the Skywest thread and read the reason they do not want to join ALPA is to have their dues money squandered on mainline pilots.
... ok, back to blaming everyone else for our problems ... sorry for the "noise."
Kind of reminds me of this clip (pardon the language) when Larry Flynt tells his lawyer "Don't be so melodramatic. You'll never quit. I'm your dream client, I'm more fun, I'm rich and I'm always in trouble." They guy had a point.
Larry's attorney quits
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 09-24-2010 at 02:03 PM.
09-24-2010, 04:40 PM
#569
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
What we all SHOULD be asking is who is really pulling the strings but too gutless to come out in the open? Hint: it's not any of these three. If I were to guess, it's someone who craves power but doesn't think he can acquire it through ALPA for whatever reason.
Perhaps he'll come out from behind the curtain. Perhaps he won't. My guess is he won't until he sees whether this will achieve success. Meanwhile he has no hesitation subjecting his three loyal followers to the negative publicity.
Nice leadership.
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