Delta Pilots Association
08-03-2011, 08:52 AM
#5612
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Is this the right place to ask DPA questions now? Sorry mods if not.
I've been reading for weeks from many of you about sending a message to ALPA, now the DPA is saying they don't want people just to send a message. There was a foreign-born FO handing out cards while I was on a productivity sit in LaLa Land a week ago and telling people to send a message to ALPA. He seemed very passionate about the message of sending a message and not so much the group.
So which is it? The DPA just posted this:
I've been reading for weeks from many of you about sending a message to ALPA, now the DPA is saying they don't want people just to send a message. There was a foreign-born FO handing out cards while I was on a productivity sit in LaLa Land a week ago and telling people to send a message to ALPA. He seemed very passionate about the message of sending a message and not so much the group.
So which is it? The DPA just posted this:
There is no marketing campaign to “Send ALPA a message by sending in your Card”. Funny thing is that we have always told people we are not interested in sending a message. We want out because there is no hope of deep change from within ALPA. We have even discouraged pilots from turning in a Card just to send a message. We want real Cards from real people who want real change. If a pilot is simply undecided, we want that Card and then we will work like crazy to prove we deserve it.
I'm reluctant to send a card and then get 'sold' on the group. The recruiters seem to be saying different things than the DPA? I understand I can't get my card back from them, ever. So how do I change my mind if I put my card in first? It seems like they just want my card?Where are you based? I got an email they have an open meeting on the 10th in ATL. You could find out more there I'm sure. I'm sure ALPA will be there if you have questions for them. Talk to both.
Just whatever either says to you, repost it here. We'll get your 9 posts up!
crap i've got a van to catch.
08-07-2011, 10:19 AM
#5613
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,704
A message would be "shape up or ship out." Define shape up as you want. I don't think the DPA is in it to send a message but those who sign DPA cards are inherently doing just that and if ALPA doesn't "shape up" then they'll have an option to replace ALPA if they want.
Where are you based? I got an email they have an open meeting on the 10th in ATL. You could find out more there I'm sure. I'm sure ALPA will be there if you have questions for them. Talk to both.
Just whatever either says to you, repost it here. We'll get your 9 posts up!
crap i've got a van to catch.
Where are you based? I got an email they have an open meeting on the 10th in ATL. You could find out more there I'm sure. I'm sure ALPA will be there if you have questions for them. Talk to both.
Just whatever either says to you, repost it here. We'll get your 9 posts up!
crap i've got a van to catch.
Here is a letter that should be very sobering to those who think a independent union with a structure like DPA proposes is a good idea. Pay close attention to the parts about established relationships with the NMB. To repeat the obvious success or failure on the next contract will happen in Washington DC. Lose there and we lose the contract.
Last month marked one year in office for APA’s current National Officers. Vice President First Officer Tony Chapman, Secretary-Treasurer First Officer Scott Shankland and I ran for office as a team committed to a common philosophy and to working together. One year later, our partnership remains stronger than ever.
I want to use this opportunity to briefly recap what we said we would do if elected—versus what we have done during the past year—and also discuss a very serious situation that has developed.
During the campaign, we committed ourselves to being as transparent as possible about what we planned to do. So how closely have we adhered to the plan we presented?
We said we would develop a more professional, business-like relationship with AMR management—we have.
We said we would seek to establish a better relationship between APA and the American Airlines Flight Department—and we have.
We said we would foster a much closer working relationship with other pilot unions in the United States and around the world—and we have.
We said we would run APA like a business, taking great care in our handling of the membership’s money—and we have. In our first year alone, we saved more than $2 million through careful cost control.
We said we would establish productive relationships with the security analysts, institutional investors and others with a financial interest in AMR—and we have. As a result of this initiative, APA’s credibility on Wall Street has increased significantly and I now regularly receive invitations to provide the pilots’ point of view at various industry forums organized by financial institutions. There are many strategic reasons why these financial community relationships are important to APA’s pilots.
I said I would move my family to Texas (joining Tony and Scott) so I could be available to APA and its members 24/7—and I have.
We said we would hire a professional negotiator—and we did. Thanks to the bridges we built with the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA), we were able to access the expertise of Mr. Seth Rosen, the country’s most experienced pilot-side Railway Labor Act negotiator who is known and respected around the world. We also contracted with ALPA’s Economic and Financial Analysis group to bolster our quantitative analysis capabilities to support our negotiating goals, a further byproduct of the closer working relationship between our two unions.
When Tony, Scott and I campaigned last year, we identified getting the contract we all deserve as our No. 1 priority. Our assessment was that “we have little chance of negotiating a restorative contract without a professional business relationship with AA management.” Despite what some naysayers assert, we have made significant progress during the past few months because of our willingness to engage management and effectively express the concerns of AA’s pilots. Thanks primarily to the lines of communications we established with management, your National Officers have been included in discussions about major corporate decisions such as aircraft purchases and other future plans.
While I share your frustration with the time it has taken, I believe we had finally set a course to accomplishing our No. 1 priority. Unfortunately, our contractual efforts have now been seriously jeopardized by the actions of a few APA domicile representatives. In an inflammatory e-mail message to the BOS Domicile last week, BOS Domicile Chairman Captain Steve Bacon alleges that ALPA has “screwed” APA (and ALPA’s own members) with respect to various legislative and regulatory issues—an allegation that is flat-out wrong. He also impugns the integrity and motivation of Mr. Rosen and ALPA’s Economic and Financial Analysis Group for recouping the cost of providing their professional services to APA. Compounding the insult, LGA Domicile Chairman Captain Pete Oborski endorsed Captain Bacon’s missive by forwarding it to the LGA pilots and Captain Steve Roach directed his members to it as “a good read.”
In response to this unwarranted attack, ALPA has notified me that they are withdrawing their service agreement with APA and withdrawing Mr. Rosen from assisting with negotiations. ALPA has likewise indicated that their Economic and Financial Analysis personnel will no longer participate in our negotiations. ALPA President Captain Lee Moak confirmed termination of the service agreement between APA and ALPA in an Aug. 1, 2011 letter (attached).
So, not only is the APA-ALPA cooperative relationship now seriously damaged, but our ongoing contract negotiations have also been adversely affected. Simultaneously losing Mr. Rosen’s expertise and the quantitative analysis capabilities of ALPA Economic and Financial Analysis represents a major setback.
In addition, Mr. Rosen and ALPA have close ties to the National Mediation Board (NMB), which may interpret this latest development as an indication that the APA leadership is in disarray and unprepared to see negotiations through to their conclusion. The NMB has repeatedly expressed concern that APA’s governing documents severely inhibit the APA President from exercising strong leadership. Additionally, the NMB is well aware of the unwillingness of some domicile representatives to permit our Negotiating Committee from effectively engaging with management’s negotiators. Before I hired Mr. Rosen, the NMB Chairman recommended that we retain someone like him to help get our house in order. The NMB Chairman also stated that if the APA Board of Directors continued to act irrationally—and if our union continued without a singular leader empowered to make decisions—the NMB would “park” APA for an extended period. If the NMB were to take that step, we would likely be unable to get a release to self-help for years to come.
Where does this leave us? Before we took office, it had become evident to our membership and to outside observers that APA was internally dysfunctional and unable to complete the process of negotiating and ratifying a contract. Much of this dysfunction was unfairly attributed to the previous National Officers, when in fact it was structural. Just as we began making meaningful progress at the bargaining table, Messrs. Bacon, Roach and Oborski have dealt APA a serious self-inflicted wound that may prove disastrous to our bargaining efforts. It is no coincidence that these three individuals have been actively seeking for some time to undermine your current National Officers.
We have worked very hard to build bridges to other pilot unions across the globe. Now, due to the actions of a few APA domicile representatives, many of those bridges are on fire. Because of flaws in APA’s governing structure, your National Officers unfortunately cannot prevent this kind of destructive behavior. During the past 15 years, the APA Constitution and Bylaws and Policy Manual have undergone more than 100 different revisions sponsored by various domicile representatives (often inexperienced) as reactions to particular events. Many of these changes were haphazard and poorly thought out, with the National Officers having had no vote in their adoption. This accumulation of faulty policymaking limits the National Officers’ ability to govern and has produced chronic dysfunction, providing fertile ground for conflict and disunity.
Our membership voted decisively in the most recent constitutional referendum to retain the right to directly elect their National Officers. What most of our members don’t realize is there has been a concerted effort by some of the same domicile representatives responsible for the current crisis to undermine our ability to govern at all—in effect, subverting the will of the membership who elected us to represent them. The three of us have had to spend enormous time and energy dealing with unproductive internal conflict, diverting resources that should be devoted to advancing the membership’s interests.
We have concluded that the best prospect for salvaging negotiations is to appeal to you, the membership, for help. It is our intention to pursue every avenue available to us, including a possible membership referendum to amend the APA Constitution and Bylaws, to ensure greater transparency and empower our members with the final say on how our union is governed.
When Tony, Scott and I asked you to entrust us with the responsibility of leading APA, we stressed the importance of “unity of leadership.” The APA leadership must speak with one voice to be effective at the bargaining table, on Capitol Hill and in the other critical venues where we represent your interests. Right now we are not speaking with one voice and the APA Board of Directors is in disarray, which is costing us dearly. We need to act swiftly and decisively to remedy the problem.
If, like us, you are shocked and disgusted at the damage caused by a minority of the APA Board of Directors, we suggest you contact your domicile representatives to inform them of your displeasure. We promise to keep you closely informed as this situation unfolds.
Thank you for your patience and continued support.
In unity,
Captain Dave Bates, APA President
First Officer Anthony Chapman, APA Vice President
08-07-2011, 10:30 AM
#5614
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
Sailingfun, I guess we'll see how well APA has performed if and when their new contract comes out. As I've said previously, they have new leverage for a contract with the new aircraft buy. If they fail to get a contract this Fall, then I'll probably concede that you are correct. If, however, they get an industry-leading contract without ALPA, then DALPA will be in trouble.
Here's a part of an associated article that you didn't post:
Here's a part of an associated article that you didn't post:
From a July 26 hotline from Boston base chairman Steve Bacon that upset Bates and ALPA:
"I cannot fathom anyone expecting to have a unified voice of labor when the largest Pilot labor organization speaks for the commuters and regionals over the wishes of the majors, many of them belonging to and paying the lion's share of the dues. They have screwed us on Duty time, ATP Requirements, age 65, security screening, and drug testing, as well, and as much as their own members.
"The support we 'get' for the negotiating coach (Professional Negotiator) and EF+A committee we 'get ' for a half million / year. There is no benevolence, just business. With their loss of the TWA DFR suit, ALPA is left holding the bag for 1.2 billion dollars. (pending appeal) It's a good time for the major airlines to start thinking about organizing a pilots union that represents the issues of our craft and trade, external to ALPA, and without it's 300K plus salaries.
" ALPA is presently attempting to organize Jet Blue. You can read about it at jetblueoc.org I am personally Very much in favor of Jet Blue organizing, I just question whom they are being courted by. I will not support it. I think (opinion) their pilots would be better served by becoming an independent and associating with CAPA so our common interests can be heard without having to placate the non-ancillary constituencies. Short of that, labor unity isn't going to be achieved any sooner than $3.00 Red Sox tickets."
"I cannot fathom anyone expecting to have a unified voice of labor when the largest Pilot labor organization speaks for the commuters and regionals over the wishes of the majors, many of them belonging to and paying the lion's share of the dues. They have screwed us on Duty time, ATP Requirements, age 65, security screening, and drug testing, as well, and as much as their own members.
"The support we 'get' for the negotiating coach (Professional Negotiator) and EF+A committee we 'get ' for a half million / year. There is no benevolence, just business. With their loss of the TWA DFR suit, ALPA is left holding the bag for 1.2 billion dollars. (pending appeal) It's a good time for the major airlines to start thinking about organizing a pilots union that represents the issues of our craft and trade, external to ALPA, and without it's 300K plus salaries.
" ALPA is presently attempting to organize Jet Blue. You can read about it at jetblueoc.org I am personally Very much in favor of Jet Blue organizing, I just question whom they are being courted by. I will not support it. I think (opinion) their pilots would be better served by becoming an independent and associating with CAPA so our common interests can be heard without having to placate the non-ancillary constituencies. Short of that, labor unity isn't going to be achieved any sooner than $3.00 Red Sox tickets."
08-07-2011, 01:42 PM
#5615
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 69
A message would be "shape up or ship out." Define shape up as you want. I don't think the DPA is in it to send a message but those who sign DPA cards are inherently doing just that and if ALPA doesn't "shape up" then they'll have an option to replace ALPA if they want.
Where are you based? I got an email they have an open meeting on the 10th in ATL. You could find out more there I'm sure. I'm sure ALPA will be there if you have questions for them. Talk to both.
Just whatever either says to you, repost it here. We'll get your 9 posts up!
crap i've got a van to catch.
Where are you based? I got an email they have an open meeting on the 10th in ATL. You could find out more there I'm sure. I'm sure ALPA will be there if you have questions for them. Talk to both.
Just whatever either says to you, repost it here. We'll get your 9 posts up!
crap i've got a van to catch.
Why would ALPA be at this meeting? That makes no sense to me. I thought it was just DPA and the law firm they are using. I'm looking at the last email that says that there might not even be time for questions now and that we should submit them when we sign up. Do you know if they will post them all on the site after?
08-07-2011, 02:21 PM
#5616
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
[/INDENT]I'm reluctant to send a card and then get 'sold' on the group. The recruiters seem to be saying different things than the DPA? I understand I can't get my card back from them, ever. So how do I change my mind if I put my card in first? It seems like they just want my card?
As far as changing your mind after you send in a card... my understanding is that all you have to do is ask for it back. TC has been very clear that he would do this upon request. In fact, an active DPA advocate just told me last week that both of the pilots (that's right, a grand whopping total of 2) who asked for their cards back had them returned promptly.
08-07-2011, 03:32 PM
#5617
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2011
Posts: 69
As far as changing your mind after you send in a card... my understanding is that all you have to do is ask for it back. TC has been very clear that he would do this upon request. In fact, an active DPA advocate just told me last week that both of the pilots (that's right, a grand whopping total of 2) who asked for their cards back had them returned promptly.
"A card or petition that simply states that the signer wanted an election would not be valid. Similarly if an employee signed the card because the union had told him that the only reason to sign the card was to have an election, the Board will not count that card. "
The NMB site is much less clear about the card though!^? Much less than less really.
"The language on authorization cards must be unambiguous and the NMB must be able to determine the employee's intent. In an accretion application, the authorization cards must be unambiguous and state clearly the sole purpose of the card. The NMB will not accept authorization cards requesting a representation election as support for accretion applications or certification by card check. Cards which both request an election and authorize the applicant to represent the employees will also not be accepted as support for accretion applications or certification by card check."
Whatever that means
Last edited by hornetsnest; 08-07-2011 at 04:01 PM. Reason: Corrected NRLB vs NMB confusion I think
08-07-2011, 05:19 PM
#5618
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
I know there is nothing you and the ALPA apologists would love more than to get this moved. This is about a major airline's pilots discussing whether we should change our union. If it was a discussion about unions in general, then you'd be right.
Keep posting this request every month or so. Your dream of stopping this discussion just might happen. ALPA will be so proud of you.
Carl
Keep posting this request every month or so. Your dream of stopping this discussion just might happen. ALPA will be so proud of you.
Carl
08-07-2011, 05:37 PM
#5619
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
What is really going on is a lively debate amongst the Mods, Admins, and Owners of this forum on how to reclassify the threads. The move of this back to the majors section was not a win for anyone, it was more about where topics will reside until they hit certain criteria.
08-08-2011, 06:27 AM
#5620
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 631
Exactly, Not only has it not been drafted the MEC has not entered discussions on the subject. Individual reps may have a personal opinion but if they are stating its a MEC position they are lying. The opener will be constructed off the contract surveys. It should and will reflect the wishes of the majority of the pilots at Delta.
Just curious: How do we know if the opener will reflect the majority of pilots wishes? What are the checks and balances? For all I know the survey results for each pilot could be filed into an electronic abyss....
Maybe it is just me...but with all the crooked politicians in our world, how can we be sure that greed, power, and a promise for a cushy management job has not spread to our union leadership?
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