Delta Pilots Association
05-13-2011, 10:30 PM
#5431
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
Okay, so why would DALPA try to sell the pilot group on scope sales? EVER?
DALPA un-assed the compass (and mesaba) pilots at a time when it might have been possible to recapture that scope...guy in charge now nat'l pres.
05-14-2011, 01:41 AM
#5432
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
What is nuts about unity?
All flying for the Delta brand should be performed by pilots on the Delta pilots' seniority list and represented by the Delta MEC. That might mean spanning multiple lists and certificates.
If being a Delta pilot was a requirement to perform Delta flying you would immediately see the value of Delta pilots increase. ALPA would all of a sudden be VERY relevant to the non represented pilots at SkyWest and Teamsters members at Republic.
If ALPA wanted to benefit itself, it would make ALPA membership a requirement to perform flying which it claims to control under its exclusivity with Delta Air Lines.
All flying for the Delta brand should be performed by pilots on the Delta pilots' seniority list and represented by the Delta MEC. That might mean spanning multiple lists and certificates.
If being a Delta pilot was a requirement to perform Delta flying you would immediately see the value of Delta pilots increase. ALPA would all of a sudden be VERY relevant to the non represented pilots at SkyWest and Teamsters members at Republic.
If ALPA wanted to benefit itself, it would make ALPA membership a requirement to perform flying which it claims to control under its exclusivity with Delta Air Lines.
05-14-2011, 01:42 AM
#5433
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
05-14-2011, 01:45 AM
#5434
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
In short, greed. Money is offered up on a silver platter, and pilots salivate over it and decide that they'd rather sell out the future in order to have more gold today. "I won't be the one to get furloughed," the all say. Only later, after the furloughs and displacements have happened, and the fleet has shrunk, does everyone finally realize just what they've done. And then, of course, they all proclaim "don't blame me, I voted no," even though it ratified by 90%.
Hey, I supported Captain Rice for ALPA President, so you won't see me proclaiming the new guy as the best thing since sliced bread. I'm talking about the organization, not an individual. ALPA is bigger than the guy in the big office. In reality, the President has absolutely nothing to do with what happens with scope. If you want to know who the culprit is on scope giveaways, don't look at the guy with the glossy picture in the magazine, look in the mirror, or look at your fellow pilots in the crew lounge. They're the problem, not some attorneys or national officers in Herndon. Convince your fellow pilots that scope is a priority, and not something to be traded for $10/hr, and you'll be getting somewhere. But if you keep focusing on blaming ALPA, or Captain Moak, or whoever else, then all you'll end up doing is looking back 10 years from now and realizing that you accomplished nothing and lost even more scope, because you threw out the union and still had the same idiot pilots voting to give away scope, regardless of the name on the union office door.
Hey, I supported Captain Rice for ALPA President, so you won't see me proclaiming the new guy as the best thing since sliced bread. I'm talking about the organization, not an individual. ALPA is bigger than the guy in the big office. In reality, the President has absolutely nothing to do with what happens with scope. If you want to know who the culprit is on scope giveaways, don't look at the guy with the glossy picture in the magazine, look in the mirror, or look at your fellow pilots in the crew lounge. They're the problem, not some attorneys or national officers in Herndon. Convince your fellow pilots that scope is a priority, and not something to be traded for $10/hr, and you'll be getting somewhere. But if you keep focusing on blaming ALPA, or Captain Moak, or whoever else, then all you'll end up doing is looking back 10 years from now and realizing that you accomplished nothing and lost even more scope, because you threw out the union and still had the same idiot pilots voting to give away scope, regardless of the name on the union office door.
05-14-2011, 03:13 AM
#5435
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
In short, none of the concessions that have been taken by pilots over the last 10 years should have happened. There has been a coordinated effort to reduce the value of the profession on both sides of the table. My question is why is this happening?
05-14-2011, 04:42 AM
#5438
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Yes and No, the case would not help us for the RLA in section 6, however, it has to do with the limited powers of a bankruptcy judge. A lot of pilots are under the belief that the bankruptcy process has the ability to strip the contract of all its worth, however, this couldn't be further from the truth.
In short, none of the concessions that have been taken by pilots over the last 10 years should have happened. There has been a coordinated effort to reduce the value of the profession on both sides of the table. My question is why is this happening?
In short, none of the concessions that have been taken by pilots over the last 10 years should have happened. There has been a coordinated effort to reduce the value of the profession on both sides of the table. My question is why is this happening?
Many here argue that Scope has never been traded for a monetary gain, but the simple fact is that for every dollar that the company "believes" it is saving by outsourcing they can justify less of a cut somewhere else.
It is a very easy way to get around the case law that you present. With CH11 the company can play innocent sheep with the judge and behind closed doors with the union tell them that unless we get X scope concession we will ask the judge to throw the contract out. Everything you would accuse the company of would be hearsay, as you would have no "proof" and as a result the leverage is not in the Associations favor. Ugly but very plausible when you have the law on your side.
I do think that any pilot group that has to go down this road may not take the same actions this industry did after 9-11.
05-14-2011, 04:49 AM
#5439
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Depends on what you consider management pilots. If you consider instructors, LCA's APD's and AQFO's then year the number is well North of that. If you are talking about full time office positions or project pilots, yes, it is in the multiple hundreds. (Roughly about 6% of the pilot group)
05-14-2011, 05:18 AM
#5440
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
It is a very easy way to get around the case law that you present. With CH11 the company can play innocent sheep with the judge and behind closed doors with the union tell them that unless we get X scope concession we will ask the judge to throw the contract out. Everything you would accuse the company of would be hearsay, as you would have no "proof" and as a result the leverage is not in the Associations favor. Ugly but very plausible when you have the law on your side.
This agreement is more fairy tale than reality. Look at the objective history and you will find D-ALPA put the "for sale" sign on junior jobs long before bankruptcy. It started when they went out of their way to begin defining flying that Delta pilots DON'T DO in their scope exceptions.
As you point out, scope has been monetized and used to transact deals with management.
IF we took the moral and legal high ground of never selling out another member, EVER, the value of our jobs would increase (supply / demand curve). Mesabah is quite correct on the law and his contribution to the debate should not be minimized.
Scope sales = political decisions
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