Delta Pilots Association
05-13-2011, 10:55 AM
#5422
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
It's a great question. If ALPA's crack legal team didn't know about this 1976 case, then that's an obvious problem. If ALPA's crack legal team DID know about it, they advised all of our negotiating committees to go ahead with Scope cave-ins knowing full well that you could never strike over it in order to get it back if it later proved to be a mistake.
Since I cannot conceive of ALPA legal not knowing about this case, it's clear their advice was the latter. Truly unbelievable.
Carl
Since I cannot conceive of ALPA legal not knowing about this case, it's clear their advice was the latter. Truly unbelievable.
Carl
Again you assume this what happened was a "scope cave in" and not a "scope sale." The history is clear. It was a sale. Bargaining credits were received in exchange for farming out flying considered to be work that was beneath the majority of members represented by the MEC.
Scope was not taken from us. We sold it.
ALPA is very quick to state the legal limitations which prevent it from doing it's primary mission of protecting pilots jobs, seniority and longevity. This primary mission is the most important work ALPA does. Not only is this work critical to us, it is critical work to ensure the association's survival.
As written before, outsourcing is a fatal poison to any union. The fact we have this thread here, while over on the regional board several similar threads are in motion openly discussing voting ALPA off the property are obvious signs ALPA has been snake bit.
The antidote is obvious to us on this board. Step one, return to the basics of representation. Realize that a union's power is dependent entirely on each and every precious represented member. Make decisions in light of expanding that power.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 05-13-2011 at 11:23 AM.
05-13-2011, 04:35 PM
#5423
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
I'm looking for the actual case files of a bankruptcy that happened several years ago, when I find them, I will post them here. they are about a steel company that tried to use bankruptcy to get out of its union scope contract and hire outsourced workers. After a long legal battle and several appeals, it was ruled that scope relief is illegal by any means unless the workers specifically agree to it. Forced scope relief by the company interferes with the right of American workers to form labor unions.
In other words, ALPA's crack legal team failed to tell you that management was not allowed to touch section 1 during bankruptcy. I wonder why?????
In other words, ALPA's crack legal team failed to tell you that management was not allowed to touch section 1 during bankruptcy. I wonder why?????
05-13-2011, 05:04 PM
#5425
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
Numerous Councils at Delta directed their LEC's to simply ask the MEC to study the Compass divestiture via resolutions. The MEC took no action to even study the matter before tossing 400 members to the curb.
More opportunities to capture flying were squandered during the acquisition of regional airlines in the last decade. In every case ALPA (as directed by the majors' MECs) went out of its way to define flying as not Delta and not Northwest flying.
In other, more mainline examples, look at the effort made to define MidWest flying as not Northwest flying.
If ALPA had enforced scope, they would have had nothing to use to trade to benefit their preferred members. Our MEC does not want to fight trench warfare over junior airplanes.
05-13-2011, 05:07 PM
#5426
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
All flying for the Delta brand should be performed by pilots on the Delta pilots' seniority list and represented by the Delta MEC. That might mean spanning multiple lists and certificates.
If being a Delta pilot was a requirement to perform Delta flying you would immediately see the value of Delta pilots increase. ALPA would all of a sudden be VERY relevant to the non represented pilots at SkyWest and Teamsters members at Republic.
If ALPA wanted to benefit itself, it would make ALPA membership a requirement to perform flying which it claims to control under its exclusivity with Delta Air Lines.
05-13-2011, 05:14 PM
#5427
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
What is nuts about unity?
All flying for the Delta brand should be performed by pilots on the Delta pilots' seniority list and represented by the Delta MEC. That might mean spanning multiple lists and certificates.
If being a Delta pilot was a requirement to perform Delta flying you would immediately see the value of Delta pilots increase. ALPA would all of a sudden be VERY relevant to the non represented pilots at SkyWest and Teamsters members at Republic.
If ALPA wanted to benefit itself, it would make ALPA membership a requirement to perform flying which it claims to control under its exclusivity with Delta Air Lines.
All flying for the Delta brand should be performed by pilots on the Delta pilots' seniority list and represented by the Delta MEC. That might mean spanning multiple lists and certificates.
If being a Delta pilot was a requirement to perform Delta flying you would immediately see the value of Delta pilots increase. ALPA would all of a sudden be VERY relevant to the non represented pilots at SkyWest and Teamsters members at Republic.
If ALPA wanted to benefit itself, it would make ALPA membership a requirement to perform flying which it claims to control under its exclusivity with Delta Air Lines.
Your clarity, while drinking a white russian in your bathrobe, is...amazing.
05-13-2011, 06:22 PM
#5428
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
05-13-2011, 07:11 PM
#5429
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
1. "ALPA" doesn't do anything. Pilots make decisions, then the national organization gets unfairly blamed for decisions made by pilots at the local level. ALPA is not some all-powerful entity that forces pilots to make certain decisions. Pilots ignore the advice of the attorneys almost as often as they follow it, and it almost always bites them in the ass later when they do. The decision to sell scope was not made by ALPA national officers, or ALPA attorneys, or anyone else with an office in Herndon or on Massachusetts Ave. It was made by Negotiating Committees, MECs, and pilot groups at each individual airline.
2. Scope can be recaptured. I think there is just such an opportunity at CAL/UAL right now. But, here's the problem: it's not going to be free. Because the law makes it quite clear that management has absolutely zero obligation to bargain over scope, you have to make it worth their while to do so. How do you do that? You have to prioritize and decide what is more important to you. Is that 40% pay raise more important, or is capturing the flying more important? Those are the kinds of decisions that have to made to recapture scope. Pilots were idiots to sell the scope in the first place, but now we have to decide what we're willing to pay to get it back.
I never consider asking questions to be making a fool out of ones self. I've asked you to post the sources on this for months over multiple threads and you never would. I'm not in the habit of accepting the unsourced claims of Internet posters, without asking questions.
If ALPA's crack legal team DID know about it, they advised all of our negotiating committees to go ahead with Scope cave-ins knowing full well that you could never strike over it in order to get it back if it later proved to be a mistake.
Since I cannot conceive of ALPA legal not knowing about this case, it's clear their advice was the latter. Truly unbelievable.
Since I cannot conceive of ALPA legal not knowing about this case, it's clear their advice was the latter. Truly unbelievable.
Steel workers fall under the NLRA, not the RLA. I'm not familiar with the case you reference, but it wouldn't be relevant to us, anyway.
05-13-2011, 07:38 PM
#5430
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Two points:
1. "ALPA" doesn't do anything. Pilots make decisions, then the national organization gets unfairly blamed for decisions made by pilots at the local level. ALPA is not some all-powerful entity that forces pilots to make certain decisions. Pilots ignore the advice of the attorneys almost as often as they follow it, and it almost always bites them in the ass later when they do. The decision to sell scope was not made by ALPA national officers, or ALPA attorneys, or anyone else with an office in Herndon or on Massachusetts Ave. It was made by Negotiating Committees, MECs, and pilot groups at each individual airline.
Okay, so why would DALPA try to sell the pilot group on scope sales? EVER? Why would our current national pres of ALPA erase a scope "line in the sand" without memrat.
2. Scope can be recaptured. I think there is just such an opportunity at CAL/UAL right now. But, here's the problem: it's not going to be free. Because the law makes it quite clear that management has absolutely zero obligation to bargain over scope, you have to make it worth their while to do so. How do you do that? You have to prioritize and decide what is more important to you. Is that 40% pay raise more important, or is capturing the flying more important? Those are the kinds of decisions that have to made to recapture scope. Pilots were idiots to sell the scope in the first place, but now we have to decide what we're willing to pay to get it back.
DALPA un-assed the compass (and mesaba) pilots at a time when it might have been possible to recapture that scope...guy in charge now nat'l pres.
Those documents could have been easily found by you with a simple Google search, Carl. Before spouting off and pretending to be an authority on something, you may want to collect the facts next time.
What evidence do you have that ALPA advised any such thing? Attorneys don't run ALPA. Decisions are all made by pilots. Unfortunately, the attorneys usually know best, but pilots ignore them. I've been doing union work for a good while now. In my experience, pilots only listen to the advice of attorneys about 60% of the time. The other 40%, they usually end up regretting that they didn't. As someone who has observed scope negotiations first hand with some of ALPA's most senior attorneys in the room, I can tell you that there is never any pressure to concede scope. If anything, the attorneys encourage pilots to be very careful about trading scope.
Steel workers fall under the NLRA, not the RLA. I'm not familiar with the case you reference, but it wouldn't be relevant to us, anyway.
1. "ALPA" doesn't do anything. Pilots make decisions, then the national organization gets unfairly blamed for decisions made by pilots at the local level. ALPA is not some all-powerful entity that forces pilots to make certain decisions. Pilots ignore the advice of the attorneys almost as often as they follow it, and it almost always bites them in the ass later when they do. The decision to sell scope was not made by ALPA national officers, or ALPA attorneys, or anyone else with an office in Herndon or on Massachusetts Ave. It was made by Negotiating Committees, MECs, and pilot groups at each individual airline.
Okay, so why would DALPA try to sell the pilot group on scope sales? EVER? Why would our current national pres of ALPA erase a scope "line in the sand" without memrat.
2. Scope can be recaptured. I think there is just such an opportunity at CAL/UAL right now. But, here's the problem: it's not going to be free. Because the law makes it quite clear that management has absolutely zero obligation to bargain over scope, you have to make it worth their while to do so. How do you do that? You have to prioritize and decide what is more important to you. Is that 40% pay raise more important, or is capturing the flying more important? Those are the kinds of decisions that have to made to recapture scope. Pilots were idiots to sell the scope in the first place, but now we have to decide what we're willing to pay to get it back.
DALPA un-assed the compass (and mesaba) pilots at a time when it might have been possible to recapture that scope...guy in charge now nat'l pres.
Those documents could have been easily found by you with a simple Google search, Carl. Before spouting off and pretending to be an authority on something, you may want to collect the facts next time.
What evidence do you have that ALPA advised any such thing? Attorneys don't run ALPA. Decisions are all made by pilots. Unfortunately, the attorneys usually know best, but pilots ignore them. I've been doing union work for a good while now. In my experience, pilots only listen to the advice of attorneys about 60% of the time. The other 40%, they usually end up regretting that they didn't. As someone who has observed scope negotiations first hand with some of ALPA's most senior attorneys in the room, I can tell you that there is never any pressure to concede scope. If anything, the attorneys encourage pilots to be very careful about trading scope.
Steel workers fall under the NLRA, not the RLA. I'm not familiar with the case you reference, but it wouldn't be relevant to us, anyway.
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