Delta Pilots Association
05-01-2011, 10:04 AM
#5261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
Think of it this way: if a regional pilot is not fit to be flying your passengers, yet the regional carrier hasn't weeded him out over all of these years that he's been a "lifer," don't you think that the way to weed him out and get him to stop flying Delta passengers is to get the Delta training department a chance at getting rid of him?
Mainline pilots need to lose the mentality that regional guys should be shunned. The only way you'll ever end the outsourcing is to bring the regional guys in, not push them away.
05-01-2011, 10:35 AM
#5262
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Think of it this way: if a regional pilot is not fit to be flying your passengers, yet the regional carrier hasn't weeded him out over all of these years that he's been a "lifer," don't you think that the way to weed him out and get him to stop flying Delta passengers is to get the Delta training department a chance at getting rid of him?
IMO, the way to bring the regional guys "in" is to bring the flying back in house and create jobs for the ones who qualify.
05-01-2011, 11:03 AM
#5263
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Scambo, I gotta disagree with you on this one. Have you seen the hiring standards in recent years at some of these DCI carriers?? And when you factor in the massive devaluation of this profession that has taken place over the past decade, common sense and the basics of economics dictates that the people getting into this profession now (not all of them, but probably most) are not of the same caliber as what we have traditionally seen.
Also, I'm guessing from your avatar that you came from the military and have not flown for a regional carrier. Well, I did fly for one back in the day... and here's my personal experience with it. What I found was that the vast majority were really sharp, mostly young guys that were just building their time and paying their dues until they could get hired by a major airline. Back then, the career was worth about TWICE what it is now... so there was no shortage in supply of sharp people getting into this profession. However, there were that 10% or so who, shall we say, had reached "the pinnacle of their career." They either had some kind of problem with their record, or no college degree, or they just didn't fit the profile of an airline pilot (i.e. they weren't the sharpest tools in the shed). But what I found flying with them was that they generally had to be watched very closely and could get into trouble pretty easily. Some of the things I saw were truly appalling, and I would absolutely not want my family on an airplane with those guys as Captain.
Now, fast forward to today. Most of the guys currently flying for DCI have been in the industry for many years and are just stuck there right now. I've flown with many of the ones we've hired from DCI in the past several years and they are OUTSTANDING pilots who are most definitely qualified to fly for Delta.
But what about that 10%? Or maybe with the value of the career and the amount of hiring done by the regionals in the past few years, it's 20%? Would you want your family sitting in the back of a jet with one of the weak Captains like I described above and an F/O that has less than 500 hours of total flight time with the ink still barely dry on his commercial/multi? (And don't forget, there's a good chance this 500 hour F/O is not that sharp of an individual to start with.)
Still think they're all qualified to be flying Delta passengers and should just be integrated onto our seniority list?
Also, I'm guessing from your avatar that you came from the military and have not flown for a regional carrier. Well, I did fly for one back in the day... and here's my personal experience with it. What I found was that the vast majority were really sharp, mostly young guys that were just building their time and paying their dues until they could get hired by a major airline. Back then, the career was worth about TWICE what it is now... so there was no shortage in supply of sharp people getting into this profession. However, there were that 10% or so who, shall we say, had reached "the pinnacle of their career." They either had some kind of problem with their record, or no college degree, or they just didn't fit the profile of an airline pilot (i.e. they weren't the sharpest tools in the shed). But what I found flying with them was that they generally had to be watched very closely and could get into trouble pretty easily. Some of the things I saw were truly appalling, and I would absolutely not want my family on an airplane with those guys as Captain.
Now, fast forward to today. Most of the guys currently flying for DCI have been in the industry for many years and are just stuck there right now. I've flown with many of the ones we've hired from DCI in the past several years and they are OUTSTANDING pilots who are most definitely qualified to fly for Delta.
But what about that 10%? Or maybe with the value of the career and the amount of hiring done by the regionals in the past few years, it's 20%? Would you want your family sitting in the back of a jet with one of the weak Captains like I described above and an F/O that has less than 500 hours of total flight time with the ink still barely dry on his commercial/multi? (And don't forget, there's a good chance this 500 hour F/O is not that sharp of an individual to start with.)
Still think they're all qualified to be flying Delta passengers and should just be integrated onto our seniority list?
Yes I was military and I commute often in the jumpseat. I have seen some questionable piloting skills, but very, very, very rarely...and none bad enough to bust a line check. Its easy to evaluate from the jumpseat tho, but all of this is beside the point...just dont put me in the DC-9 because my steam guage SA is not that high.
I cannot and will not disagree with the fact that most new hire regional pilots don't meet Delta's stated pilot hiring standards when they are hired at the regionals...again, beside the point.
My point is that these pilots are flying Delta passengers...in the case of Comair, they exclusively fly Delta pax. The decision points -as I see them are:
1. What guage of aircraft should be flying for the mainline?
2. How else can we reach out for unity except to realize that DCI pilots are (actually) Delta pilots except in name.
You fly the DC9. I think the DC9 guage is mainline. I also happen to think that anything with a first class seat is mainline. I also think that anything over a certain seat size (lets say 45 seat for an arbitrary figure) should be mainline (how many seats were on a DC3 when they were in pax service and how much did those mainline pilots get paid relative to pilots today?).
The arguement that DCI pilots dont meet Delta hiring standards is a fair arguement, but it is also the issue most easily dealt with - the standards are firm. Period. My understanding is that some recent hires have been let go due to non-performance...is this really a problem?
05-01-2011, 11:47 AM
#5264
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Yes I was military and I commute often in the jumpseat. I have seen some questionable piloting skills, but very, very, very rarely...and none bad enough to bust a line check. Its easy to evaluate from the jumpseat tho, but all of this is beside the point...just dont put me in the DC-9 because my steam guage SA is not that high.
I cannot and will not disagree with the fact that most new hire regional pilots don't meet Delta's stated pilot hiring standards when they are hired at the regionals...again, beside the point.
My point is that these pilots are flying Delta passengers...in the case of Comair, they exclusively fly Delta pax. The decision points -as I see them are:
1. What guage of aircraft should be flying for the mainline?
2. How else can we reach out for unity except to realize that DCI pilots are (actually) Delta pilots except in name.
You fly the DC9. I think the DC9 guage is mainline. I also happen to think that anything with a first class seat is mainline. I also think that anything over a certain seat size (lets say 45 seat for an arbitrary figure) should be mainline (how many seats were on a DC3 when they were in pax service and how much did those mainline pilots get paid relative to pilots today?).
The arguement that DCI pilots dont meet Delta hiring standards is a fair arguement, but it is also the issue most easily dealt with - the standards are firm. Period. My understanding is that some recent hires have been let go due to non-performance...is this really a problem?
I cannot and will not disagree with the fact that most new hire regional pilots don't meet Delta's stated pilot hiring standards when they are hired at the regionals...again, beside the point.
My point is that these pilots are flying Delta passengers...in the case of Comair, they exclusively fly Delta pax. The decision points -as I see them are:
1. What guage of aircraft should be flying for the mainline?
2. How else can we reach out for unity except to realize that DCI pilots are (actually) Delta pilots except in name.
You fly the DC9. I think the DC9 guage is mainline. I also happen to think that anything with a first class seat is mainline. I also think that anything over a certain seat size (lets say 45 seat for an arbitrary figure) should be mainline (how many seats were on a DC3 when they were in pax service and how much did those mainline pilots get paid relative to pilots today?).
The arguement that DCI pilots dont meet Delta hiring standards is a fair arguement, but it is also the issue most easily dealt with - the standards are firm. Period. My understanding is that some recent hires have been let go due to non-performance...is this really a problem?
As far as mainline gauge aircraft... I totally agree that the vast majority of these DCI aircraft should be mainline aircraft flown by mainline pilots. I am one of the few that was saying this way back in the late 1990's when all these RJ's first started showing up. It has been a huge mistake to allow all this outsourcing... not only for the number of mainline pilot jobs, but also for the quality of our domestic product.
05-01-2011, 11:57 AM
#5265
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
That's a great talking point, but the question is "how?" Delta management finds these deals with regional carriers to be great business arrangements. Why would they negotiate away their ability to outsource? Under the law, scope is a permissive subject of bargaining. That means that management doesn't have to bargain over it unless they want to, and the NMB isn't permitted to release you to strike over it. That's the law. So, how do you bring management to the table to bargain over eliminating their outsourcing flexibility? Since they aren't required to even talk about it, you'll have to offer them something that they deem of value in order to get them to agree. That means your dreams of "full restoration" of your pay rates would probably have to go. Are you willing to make that trade to recapture your flying? If not, what is your plan to accomplish your goal? I'd love to hear your ideas, rather than just talking points.
05-01-2011, 12:10 PM
#5266
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,913
Nu
05-01-2011, 12:50 PM
#5267
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
That's a great talking point, but the question is "how?" Delta management finds these deals with regional carriers to be great business arrangements. Why would they negotiate away their ability to outsource? Under the law, scope is a permissive subject of bargaining. That means that management doesn't have to bargain over it unless they want to, and the NMB isn't permitted to release you to strike over it. That's the law. So, how do you bring management to the table to bargain over eliminating their outsourcing flexibility? Since they aren't required to even talk about it, you'll have to offer them something that they deem of value in order to get them to agree. That means your dreams of "full restoration" of your pay rates would probably have to go. Are you willing to make that trade to recapture your flying? If not, what is your plan to accomplish your goal? I'd love to hear your ideas, rather than just talking points.
And for the record... I haven't read any of that on some sheet of talking points. Those are my thoughts based on my experiences and knowledge of business and aviation. I stand by what I said.
05-01-2011, 01:08 PM
#5268
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: Recovering Airline Pilot
Posts: 460
05-01-2011, 01:09 PM
#5269
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
You remember the littany of prro performance. Things like "pension liquidity shortfall, misinformation, PRP's, election shenanigans, no strike committee, no bankruptcy prep..." That's some real heel diggin...
Monty Python comes to mind. "it's just a flesh wound!"
05-01-2011, 01:29 PM
#5270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
The MEC Chairman works for the MEC. Some members of the MEC were unhappy with the job the MEC Chairman was doing. There was a vote per the ALPA Constitution. A new chairman was elected. You weren't there and you have no idea about why the MEC was unhappy with the MEC Chairman. Yet that doesn't stop you from maligning people merely on hearsay. Someone told me that NuGuy hates puppies and runs over kittens with his car, see how easy that is?
This brings me back to the concept that some people don't respect their fellow pilots and don't respect democracy. The MEC holds an election and one person wins and one person loses. TANSTAAFL might call that a "coup" or use some other word, but I call it "democracy". No one on the MEC that voted either way was recalled or seriously questioned about their motives by their own pilots, it was a small group that invented a story to fit their own view of the world. They don't like real democracy so there had to be some nefarious dealings, how else could their wishes not be followed. Really, the arrogance of that view is astonishing.
Lee Moak was elected by the MEC in a fair vote. Some people were unhappy with the outcome, but that is democracy. He was reelected unanimously by the same people two years later. Maybe they were happy with his work. He ran unopposed for the position when the MEC's were merged. You could have run, yet you try to pass off his election as some farce.
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