DAL 88 Driver

There are some elements of truth to what you're saying. But I think our undoing has been and will be people like yourself who believe our profession is less valuable. You're entitled to your opinion, but I'm also entitled to mine... and I think you are absolutely dead wrong on that. The level of expertise, skill, career risk, and tremendous responsibility we all have should be self explanatory. I know you're a big free market guy. So am I. But you are selling us short and, IMO, people like you are a big part of the problem.

Carl Spackler

That is totally incorrect. The NMB was not created to be a judge and arbitrator of what is fair and unfair in a labor contract. That is exactly what they are doing now, and it has NEVER happened before in history. This is plowing new ground.

Untrue. The NMB has totally changed, but it happened under the Bush administration. The Obama administration is continuing this tolerance of the new NMB acting as a judge and arbitrator.

I wouldn't mind seeing the RLA changed as well, but that's not totally necessary to change the current dynamic. The only change required is by Congress to put the NMB back in their role as a MEDIATOR. ALPA has the political clout to force this change in the Congress, but ALPA is not even mentioning this as an action item at all.

We're not even using the political clout we have now. What makes you think we would use any additional clout gained from "unity" if don't use the clout we have now?

I'm not an expert on exactly what happened with that, but I tend to think you're right.

Saying that a 200 hour pilot with a temporary commercial pilot's license is unqualified is NOT arrogance or lack of vision, it is the truth. Saying that someone with multiple DUI's and/or an accident on their record couldn't get hired here is not arrogance or lack of vision, it is the truth. A wholesale installation of these pilots onto the seniority lists of the majors is wrong on so many levels. Forget about the obvious problems of arbitrating the merged seniority list, it would be a huge slap in the face to our military pilots. They are serving the nation and risking their lives, and many hope to join the majors some day when they get out. To have many of those slots taken away by people with no college degree and minimum qualifications is just wrong. RJ pilots should go through the exact same hiring process as all other pilots have to go through. No special treatment.

Carl

scambo1

I think you guys are both right and both wrong - hows that for divergence of opinion.

Satch; You largely nailed my view on unity for lack of a better word, but the hole in your perspective is that ALPA national has proven time and again that they have no will to ACTUALLY go to the mat for pilots...Unity squandered.

88; You are correct in your assesment of the "value" of an airline pilot. The other element to that is unity. However, that unity has to be wielded forcefully...it isnt and hasn't been...So what's the point of it?

The DCI pilots have been flying Delta pax for years. The arguement that they arent qualified or couldn't get hired here is foolish pride. They are hired here, just not integrated on our seniority list.

I am not going down the road of the RJDC, that was wrong, but our national union hasn't been in the "union" business for a lot of years. DALPA's sellout of Compass was just another chapter in its de-unity, de-valuation of a pilot movement.

scambo1

I see I'm not the only one that played hooky from church today.

PCL_128

Carl, I'm curious how it is exactly that you think the NMB should behave. For a moment, let's say that you're a member of the NMB. And let's say a group of major airline pilots and their company come to you for mediation, and that pilot group is demanding a 52% pay raise. Their company is already losing money, and it's obvious to you and everyone else that a 52% increase to rates of pay, not to mention other demands that total up to about another 50% increase in payroll, would nearly instantly bankrupt the company. What would you do? What do you think the "right" thing to do for the NMB is in such a situation? And please keep in mind that the entire purpose of the NMB is to assist in resolving labor disputes while avoiding disruptions in rail and air commerce.

Carl Spackler

Similar things have happened many, many times before in the history of airline labor negotiations. In the past, when this happens, the NMB declares an impasse and both sides are released to pursue self-help. The union can strike, and the company can replace the entire work force. Both have happened many times before. NEVER BEFORE have we had this current situation of the NMB refusing to declare an impasse until THEIR view of a labor contract has been agreed to by labor. This has NEVER happened before. Instead of the NMB mediating on behalf of both sides, management currently has the NMB arbitrating on their behalf.

They are to do so by using the historical methods that I've outlined above...not by removing the right to strike and arbitrating on behalf of management.

Carl

TheManager

ALPA already represents the majority of airline pilots in the US, therefore they should have the power and political clout to effect change in DC., not just debate.

The first problem is that ALPA does not do what the majority of their members desire when they have a chance to effect legislation.

May I present exhibit 1. Age 65.


The next problem they have though Sat is that regardless of how many members ALPA has, they will not have what the ATA has. $$$$$$$$$$. (Coincidentally, ALPA came in on the side of the ATA on the age 65 legislation. Imagine that.)

$$$$ + a great lobby = favorable legislation.

So, what should ALPA do in the face of a superior war chest and lobbying effort from the ATA? It is time for ALPA to act like what they are. A labor union. Where would we all be today if they had done just that at the most critrical juncture in recent history earlier this decade. Had ALPA stood up for the USAirways pilots and all of its members when the first threat of wiping away their pension was sounded, our futures would be profoundly different.

If there ever was a time to use S O S, that was it. The next critical opportunity lies with cabbotage and the Emmirates aggression.

Will they have the stones?

Carl Spackler

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This!!

Carl

PCL_128

Really? Can you cite an example? When in the past has the NMB provided a release into self help when a pilot group was demanding to double the cost of pilot payroll year over year when an airline was already losing money?

DAL 88 Driver

Scambo, I gotta disagree with you on this one. Have you seen the hiring standards in recent years at some of these DCI carriers?? And when you factor in the massive devaluation of this profession that has taken place over the past decade, common sense and the basics of economics dictates that the people getting into this profession now (not all of them, but probably most) are not of the same caliber as what we have traditionally seen.

Also, I'm guessing from your avatar that you came from the military and have not flown for a regional carrier. Well, I did fly for one back in the day... and here's my personal experience with it. What I found was that the vast majority were really sharp, mostly young guys that were just building their time and paying their dues until they could get hired by a major airline. Back then, the career was worth about TWICE what it is now... so there was no shortage in supply of sharp people getting into this profession. However, there were that 10% or so who, shall we say, had reached "the pinnacle of their career." They either had some kind of problem with their record, or no college degree, or they just didn't fit the profile of an airline pilot (i.e. they weren't the sharpest tools in the shed). But what I found flying with them was that they generally had to be watched very closely and could get into trouble pretty easily. Some of the things I saw were truly appalling, and I would absolutely not want my family on an airplane with those guys as Captain.

Now, fast forward to today. Most of the guys currently flying for DCI have been in the industry for many years and are just stuck there right now. I've flown with many of the ones we've hired from DCI in the past several years and they are OUTSTANDING pilots who are most definitely qualified to fly for Delta.

But what about that 10%? Or maybe with the value of the career and the amount of hiring done by the regionals in the past few years, it's 20%? Would you want your family sitting in the back of a jet with one of the weak Captains like I described above and an F/O that has less than 500 hours of total flight time with the ink still barely dry on his commercial/multi? (And don't forget, there's a good chance this 500 hour F/O is not that sharp of an individual to start with.)

Still think they're all qualified to be flying Delta passengers and should just be integrated onto our seniority list?