Scoop

Reminds me ot the immortal words of Roy Scheider one of the best movie one liners ever) in Jaws:

"I think were gonna need a bigger boat."

Scoop

DAL 88 Driver

No it's not. That is exactly the way I see it.

Everyone? I don't think so.

And I disagree with your premise. ALPA is simply there to protect and enhance our careers and our profession... no more, no less. In the 20+ years I've been paying ALPA dues, I cannot think of anything I have wasted my money on more. In my personal life, I would never accept such dismal performance from something I paid good money for.

Well sometimes is certainly seems that way.

I disagree. It has been many years since the bankruptcy/emergency has been over at Delta. And yet we are still being compensated as if we are in bankruptcy and an emergency condition exists. And while the company is clearly not in danger of bankruptcy or liquidation, ALPA refuses to approach the company for a mid-contract partial pay restoration. Even after resolutions have been overwhelmingly passed at the LEC level to this effect... ALPA just marks them "received" and refuses to do anything about it. Some "mechanism to further your career."

TheManager

Acl, Really? The best mechanism?

TheManager

which one is ALPA and which one represents pilots?

acl65pilot

I look at their actions and the industry as a whole. Everyone wants to point to SWAPA, and APA and tout their successes. On the SWAPA front their pay was well behind ours until CH11. Period. PFT outfit by the way. We went through CH11, took cuts they did not. They have effectively stagnated. (Small increases but no where near what ALPA had for a track record leading up to CH11)
APA, took cuts, kept their pension, but work for a company that has major financial issues. Their story is not done. I want them to be successful, but the reality is that their work rules and reserve are worse than our, but they have a pension, get paid about what we do, and have been in section six almost as long as we have been out of CH11.

ALPA and how they compare to these two: No Section six of a major carrier has been completed since the CH11 era. Look at the PWA/CBA's of the pilot groups that gotten contracts under ALPA in the last few years. Look at the raises Air Tran, Hawaiian and Alaska have gotten; ALL ALPA Carriers.

Point is that look at who has had success, who has not, and the industry as a whole. Be realistic and what we have gone though. Realize that APA, and UCAL are in section six. APA is parked, Dave Bates; APA's President as turned to the best, ALPA for help.

No one including me has issues with changes within ALPA. NONE. Keep the vehicle that has served the profession well over the last 75+ years, but change it if you want. Use the process, it has worked well, and will continue to work if pilots are willing to engage in it, not sit on the side lines and complain about it.

I disagree. We agree they have the longest track record, and it is one of success and failure like any organization that has stood the test of time. Look at its whole history. Everyone wants to focus on the last ten year, and that is understandable, but you have to look at the industry as a whole before you think ALPA pilots are the only pilot that have given.

Funny thing is that the workers in DC keep on working, but the politicians changes constantly. Anyone can run for the President's position. Want change it starts with getting reps that see things the way you do, and working with other pilot groups that see the things the way you do. Then have these reps vote their roll call votes.
DAL has 10.900+ roll call votes. There were 42,000 votes at the last election. UCAL had about 11,000. These two groups together were over half the votes. We carry the weight. (Add in Fex Ex, AS, HI, ATN and we have about 31K of the votes) The process and votes are there, use them to effect change you want.

DAL88, reality is that the last six year have sucked for you; since CH11. About 20% of your career.
I see the act of an independent union as selfish and self serving. It may get you something you want in the short term, maybe. I still see that as unlikely. Look no further to APA to see what happens when that process has been employed.
We as pilots need to realize that unified as a trade, or profession we succeed. Divided we will fail. Issues like Foreign Ownership. Emirates, relationships with foreign carriers that are unionized and more importantly relationships with pilots and managements of companies that are not, National influence on regulatory and congressional process, as well as safety, and many other items that are too long to list are exactly why one front for ALL pilots is the way to go. I know those FLAPS irk the heck out of ya and you want to see them out of your union. My issue with that premise is, it is better to have them under your umbrella dealing with the issues in house than dealing with them at the table with your company or in a court of law. Simply put the issues get dealt with internally.

Moreover, it is an issue that we created. They would not be the size or scope they are unless we voted for the scope changes. Want the problem to fix itself, do not vote for pay over scope. In one or two contract cycles the issue will be further mitigated than what economies of scale are doing now.
DAL88, we had a merger a JPWA that extended the contract two years. Look at the realities. We as a group voted overwhelmingly for it. I could see your point if we had a section six process or we had a JPWA with another concluded section six process before the JPWA, but we have not. There has not been one other group that has gone drastically ahead of us. Use SWAPA, fine, but the fact is that our JPWA, the last agreement that we had up for MEMRAT was done a little over a year after we exited CH11, and we had only two profitable quarters and four very unprofitable quarters leading up to that. After it was signed DAL took billions in right offs, and lost billions. We did not enter in to another concessionary agreement, and did not furlough. It may be easy to forget that, but the fact is that it could have been a lot worse.

Going forward, pray and hope that when it is our turn at the plate, UCAL and APA have had agreements that have built on ours. It makes DALPA's job of obtaining what you want that much easier. Like I have said, you are frustrated, and as I have said DPA has some great points, but fix them from within. Let DALPA do what it does best, negotiate a section six agreement. You have not even allowed that to happen. Heck we may get put in to another merger and have another type of event that we had with our last merger. Reality is that we as a company and a industry are in a different place today. It may not be that way tomorrow, but today we are. Look at the big picture and realize that your DALPA and ALPA teams are doing everything they can to get us what we want. Reality is that no that much time has passed since CH11 and we have not had the opportunity at the correct time to put the power of DALPA and ALPA to task. We are getting to that time that we will. Engage, and unify with the process. The current actions of dividing this group will hamper that process, and further enrage you. Stop it and better all of the Delta Pilot's chances of getting the most they can out of the process.

acl65pilot

In ain't Kool Aid. It is fact. Ask your Fed Ex friends what they though of their independent and why they are back in ALPA. I take that experience to heart. I prefer not to go though the same process and not have what we currently have to go back to. Call it self preservation if you will.

johnso29

Is that a picture from a USAPA meeting? We all know they have really made progress.

They left ALPA and what do ya know, they're still on BK wages too!!! But their wages are much worse. E190 FO's cap out at $57 an hour & A320 FO's cap out at $86 an hour. Are they supporting an RJ union? Nope.

But clearly, leaving ALPA for USAPA has been effective. It's evident that they're not wasting any $$$.

Carl Spackler

Karnak, You and I work for the same airline and for some reason you believe that giving our dues money to RJ unions is a good idea. For some reason, you believe it sends a great message to have our union try to bust another union. For some reason, you have confidence in a legal team that fought and lost the legal battle to bust a union. For some reason, you believe people like me who want all of our union's efforts to be used only for Delta pilots is fostering disunity.

Hope all that makes sense to you, but no...it doesn't float my boat.

Carl

TheManager

The same process that sees resolutions made only to be received and then parked never to see the light of day again? Complete obstructionism and defiance when requests to see budgets, expenditures and FPL data that is fueled by dues money are made. Then, when the requests and resolutions continue, the comunications committee which normally spews its brand of proselytism shifts gears and puts forth a blend of denials and targeted propaganda.

Finally, what about the rampant cronyism. You know something about that now as we all have seen about the most dispicable display of "its about me, not what is best for the pilots" behavior in the last committee election.

This is beyond just broken. An organized take over is about all that can save it. Worked for the Egyptians. We all have Facebook and Twitter access????? Maybe Wilson Polling should be focusing on this for the next round.

Carl Spackler

It makes sense? This is precisely why we have this effort of a new union. People like you are fully supportive of ALPA's efforts to represent and grow the regionals. People like you are fully supportive of the Moak logic of RJ's being good for Delta. When people like me disagree, people like you call it "shooting holes in the boat" and "shooting ourselves in the foot" and "committing mass suicide", etc.

Pithy quotes from the ALPA crowd control manual are all guys like you have.

Carl