Delta Pilots Association
02-24-2011, 06:18 PM
#4481
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
ALPA has lost this moral ground. They can never speak on this particular subject again without being utter hypocrites.
Carl
02-24-2011, 06:38 PM
#4482
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 793
I know that, and that is why I'm against their having that right. You see they are public employees. IMHO, you sign up to work for the gov't you shouldn't have that right. Can you imagine soldiers arguing for CBA? Here you have teachers not teaching because of a union. ALPA should keep their nose out of this.
02-24-2011, 06:50 PM
#4483
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
As long as you don't work for ALPA. Then you don't have that right and they try to break your union.
Even bigger difference when you criticize those that try to do EXACTLY what you tried to do.
ALPA has lost this moral ground. They can never speak on this particular subject again without being utter hypocrites.
Carl
Even bigger difference when you criticize those that try to do EXACTLY what you tried to do.
ALPA has lost this moral ground. They can never speak on this particular subject again without being utter hypocrites.
Carl
Carl;
I am not disagreeing with you. I am stating that it is very dangerous for ALPA to not support collective bargaining.
The reality is that if the unions win in WI, the Governor will bankrupt the state and then shed their contracts. It is a template of what is to come. As many airline labor units did, it is much wiser to not engage in a pi$$ing contest that could result in larger losses for their group. Also 12% of your medical costs is a far cry from what we pay.
As for what ALPA did, I agree it is inexcusable. Better to negotiate than to pull this crap. BTW what ALPA did is exactly what some on here wanted them to do, and we all warned of the results.
02-24-2011, 07:46 PM
#4484
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
I know that, and that is why I'm against their having that right. You see they are public employees. IMHO, you sign up to work for the gov't you shouldn't have that right. Can you imagine soldiers arguing for CBA? Here you have teachers not teaching because of a union. ALPA should keep their nose out of this.
I'm tired of teachers being underpaid as it is. A solid part of the reason our schools are falling behind is because we don't have as many of the best and brightest going into education because of the woefully low pay and retirements they get.
The unions have already agreed to accept the pay and benefit cuts, so why does the gov. up there still insist on the collective castration? Its a power play, IMHO.
02-24-2011, 07:57 PM
#4485
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: right for a long, long time
Posts: 2,642
As long as you don't work for ALPA. Then you don't have that right and they try to break your union.
Even bigger difference when you criticize those that try to do EXACTLY what you tried to do.
ALPA has lost this moral ground. They can never speak on this particular subject again without being utter hypocrites.
Carl
Even bigger difference when you criticize those that try to do EXACTLY what you tried to do.
ALPA has lost this moral ground. They can never speak on this particular subject again without being utter hypocrites.
Carl
So anyone who speeds and runs a red light should NEVER have a driver's license again, or else they are utter hypocrites?
I'd say that it was a learning experience, a "stupid tax" if you will, on the Association, and punishment is appropriate for the decision makers who tried to pull that on Unit 1, 2 whoever and failed. I don't agree that ALPA as a whole is branded with a scarlet letter for all eternity. (Whoever was in charge and tried to break down that union needs an a$$kicking and Article XIII or Article XVI action, whichever applies)
02-24-2011, 08:42 PM
#4486
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 793
As someone who benefits from collective bargaining, it is wise to support others who also collectively bargain.
I'm tired of teachers being underpaid as it is. A solid part of the reason our schools are falling behind is because we don't have as many of the best and brightest going into education because of the woefully low pay and retirements they get.
The unions have already agreed to accept the pay and benefit cuts, so why does the gov. up there still insist on the collective castration? Its a power play, IMHO.
I'm tired of teachers being underpaid as it is. A solid part of the reason our schools are falling behind is because we don't have as many of the best and brightest going into education because of the woefully low pay and retirements they get.
The unions have already agreed to accept the pay and benefit cuts, so why does the gov. up there still insist on the collective castration? Its a power play, IMHO.
The average Milwaukee public-school teacher salary is $56,500, but with benefits the total package is over $100,000. Not too shabby for 180 days of work.
Just because I might benefit from it doesn't mean I'm going to look the other way. No, it's not just about me, moreover, like many, I'm concerned more than ever the country my children inherit is going to be much worse off than what I was fortunate to come of age in. Time for some hard choices and instead of just looking to get ahead at every opportunity at the expense of becoming another Greece.
02-24-2011, 08:45 PM
#4487
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
As someone who benefits from collective bargaining, it is wise to support others who also collectively bargain.
I'm tired of teachers being underpaid as it is. A solid part of the reason our schools are falling behind is because we don't have as many of the best and brightest going into education because of the woefully low pay and retirements they get.
The unions have already agreed to accept the pay and benefit cuts, so why does the gov. up there still insist on the collective castration? Its a power play, IMHO.
I'm tired of teachers being underpaid as it is. A solid part of the reason our schools are falling behind is because we don't have as many of the best and brightest going into education because of the woefully low pay and retirements they get.
The unions have already agreed to accept the pay and benefit cuts, so why does the gov. up there still insist on the collective castration? Its a power play, IMHO.
And from what I've heard they have most certainlly not agreed to the necessary cuts but rather viewed the cuts as an opener from which they would negotiate downward upon. They then, of course, try to turn it into a poor underpaid teachers arguement but the NEA as a whole and their particular state affiliate are extremely corrupt, have been found using membership dues money for mass direct political contributions to candidates of a particular persuasion, argue vehemently against parental choice and meaningful accountability, and their cries for parity go straight out the window because public teachers still make, on average, way more than their private counterparts. Not only that, but the percentages of benefits they are being faced with paying pale in comparison to almost the entirety of the private sector and that is microcosm for government in general.
State and national debt is beyond out of control. It is a crisis, period. No one, not even the evil anti union republicrats, dare to propose literally even 10% of the austerity measures necessary to stop the bleeding, much less fix the problem. Although I have great reservations about "public unions" (which, by the way, have been the lynchpins in almost every totalitarian regime in modern history) they can have as much collective bargaining rights as they want, as long as the overall problem is fixed IAW fiscal realities. But they will never, ever go for that.
This is playing out to be a classic partisan divide, but the fact remains the party is over, the bill is here, we can't pay and its time to go in the back and wash the dishes. That goes not only for public union contracts but other untouchable sacred cows like Social Security, Medicare, foreign aid, military, global welfare and government overhead at every level, not one iota of which a political majority up to this point has had the courage to even face much less fix, including considerable majorities in all branches of government at given times by both major parties. All we have done is roll the snowball up the hill and defer a greater problem for someone else. That someone else is now us.
I don't believe for one second that they are just protesting about some esoteric contstruct of collective bargaining in theory only. They are protesting the cuts, and they think in doing so they can bargain those cuts down. They can not. The economics of it are as undeniable as they are staggering. And unlike a money losing private company, they are burning the people's money and like it or not that makes it different. Even FDR, the high priest of modern leftism understood that. And the peoples' whose money is burning are broke too. The take away on this is Wisconsin is just the tip of the iceberg. Austerity here will rival Europe by a large margin and sooner than later, and it will be bitterly resisted along the way but there is no other way.
What we as a private profession shouldn't do is get in the middle of it because "unions good always and forever" as that is not the case. Do we want a system where everyone is in a union and it becomes a superpower politburo that blends the functions of corporate and political interests into one indistinguishable force? Public unions and private unions are 180 degrees different in concept. Lets not get so wrapped up in the banner of the concept that we lose sight of that.
02-24-2011, 09:02 PM
#4488
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Starboard Side, weekends & holidays.
Posts: 856
The overriding issue there is the state (as many) are broke. Big time. Beyond the ability to recover without some massive, earth shattering, sacred cow skewering, unthinkable and unacceptable outcomes to municipal unions. Even FDR, arguably one of the biggest cheerleaders of unions in this country ever, was over all against public unions entirely.
And from what I've heard they have most certainlly not agreed to the necessary cuts but rather viewed the cuts as an opener from which they would negotiate downward upon. They then, of course, try to turn it into a poor underpaid teachers arguement but the NEA as a whole and their particular state affiliate are extremely corrupt, have been found using membership dues money for mass direct political contributions to candidates of a particular persuasion, argue vehemently against parental choice and meaningful accountability, and their cries for parity go straight out the window because public teachers still make, on average, way more than their private counterparts. Not only that, but the percentages of benefits they are being faced with paying pale in comparison to almost the entirety of the private sector and that is microcosm for government in general.
State and national debt is beyond out of control. It is a crisis, period. No one, not even the evil anti union republicrats, dare to propose literally even 10% of the austerity measures necessary to stop the bleeding, much less fix the problem. Although I have great reservations about "public unions" (which, by the way, have been the lynchpins in almost every totalitarian regime in modern history) they can have as much collective bargaining rights as they want, as long as the overall problem is fixed IAW fiscal realities. But they will never, ever go for that.
This is playing out to be a classic partisan divide, but the fact remains the party is over, the bill is here, we can't pay and its time to go in the back and wash the dishes. That goes not only for public union contracts but other untouchable sacred cows like Social Security, Medicare, foreign aid, military, global welfare and government overhead at every level, not one iota of which a political majority up to this point has had the courage to even face much less fix, including considerable majorities in all branches of government at given times by both major parties. All we have done is roll the snowball up the hill and defer a greater problem for someone else. That someone else is now us.
I don't believe for one second that they are just protesting about some esoteric contstruct of collective bargaining in theory only. They are protesting the cuts, and they think in doing so they can bargain those cuts down. They can not. The economics of it are as undeniable as they are staggering. And unlike a money losing private company, they are burning the people's money and like it or not that makes it different. Even FDR, the high priest of modern leftism understood that. And the peoples' whose money is burning are broke too. The take away on this is Wisconsin is just the tip of the iceberg. Austerity here will rival Europe by a large margin and sooner than later, and it will be bitterly resisted along the way but there is no other way.
What we as a private profession shouldn't do is get in the middle of it because "unions good always and forever" as that is not the case. Do we want a system where everyone is in a union and it becomes a superpower politburo that blends the functions of corporate and political interests into one indistinguishable force? Public unions and private unions are 180 degrees different in concept. Lets not get so wrapped up in the banner of the concept that we lose sight of that.
And from what I've heard they have most certainlly not agreed to the necessary cuts but rather viewed the cuts as an opener from which they would negotiate downward upon. They then, of course, try to turn it into a poor underpaid teachers arguement but the NEA as a whole and their particular state affiliate are extremely corrupt, have been found using membership dues money for mass direct political contributions to candidates of a particular persuasion, argue vehemently against parental choice and meaningful accountability, and their cries for parity go straight out the window because public teachers still make, on average, way more than their private counterparts. Not only that, but the percentages of benefits they are being faced with paying pale in comparison to almost the entirety of the private sector and that is microcosm for government in general.
State and national debt is beyond out of control. It is a crisis, period. No one, not even the evil anti union republicrats, dare to propose literally even 10% of the austerity measures necessary to stop the bleeding, much less fix the problem. Although I have great reservations about "public unions" (which, by the way, have been the lynchpins in almost every totalitarian regime in modern history) they can have as much collective bargaining rights as they want, as long as the overall problem is fixed IAW fiscal realities. But they will never, ever go for that.
This is playing out to be a classic partisan divide, but the fact remains the party is over, the bill is here, we can't pay and its time to go in the back and wash the dishes. That goes not only for public union contracts but other untouchable sacred cows like Social Security, Medicare, foreign aid, military, global welfare and government overhead at every level, not one iota of which a political majority up to this point has had the courage to even face much less fix, including considerable majorities in all branches of government at given times by both major parties. All we have done is roll the snowball up the hill and defer a greater problem for someone else. That someone else is now us.
I don't believe for one second that they are just protesting about some esoteric contstruct of collective bargaining in theory only. They are protesting the cuts, and they think in doing so they can bargain those cuts down. They can not. The economics of it are as undeniable as they are staggering. And unlike a money losing private company, they are burning the people's money and like it or not that makes it different. Even FDR, the high priest of modern leftism understood that. And the peoples' whose money is burning are broke too. The take away on this is Wisconsin is just the tip of the iceberg. Austerity here will rival Europe by a large margin and sooner than later, and it will be bitterly resisted along the way but there is no other way.
What we as a private profession shouldn't do is get in the middle of it because "unions good always and forever" as that is not the case. Do we want a system where everyone is in a union and it becomes a superpower politburo that blends the functions of corporate and political interests into one indistinguishable force? Public unions and private unions are 180 degrees different in concept. Lets not get so wrapped up in the banner of the concept that we lose sight of that.
02-24-2011, 09:47 PM
#4489
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Posts: 710
The take away on this is Wisconsin is just the tip of the iceberg. Austerity here will rival Europe by a large margin and sooner than later, and it will be bitterly resisted along the way but there is no other way.
What we as a private profession shouldn't do is get in the middle of it because "unions good always and forever" as that is not the case. Do we want a system where everyone is in a union and it becomes a superpower politburo that blends the functions of corporate and political interests into one indistinguishable force? Public unions and private unions are 180 degrees different in concept. Lets not get so wrapped up in the banner of the concept that we lose sight of that.
What we as a private profession shouldn't do is get in the middle of it because "unions good always and forever" as that is not the case. Do we want a system where everyone is in a union and it becomes a superpower politburo that blends the functions of corporate and political interests into one indistinguishable force? Public unions and private unions are 180 degrees different in concept. Lets not get so wrapped up in the banner of the concept that we lose sight of that.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Lbell911
Regional
23
04-22-2012 10:33 AM
