Originally Posted by Sink r8

At the risk of ruining your argument by saying this... it makes perfect sense to me. If we vote for the reps, and we vote for the contracts, and we want more MEMRAT, then how are we going to see a different outcome under the DPA?

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Carl-
You only hit on two of the attorneys. There are several more.

Plus, if you go to the detail list of itemized expenditures for ALPA National available on that same gov't. website you will find that our high paid staff attorneys need a lot of help.
Several million dollars goes to Cohen, Weiss and Simon every single year.

And it gets worse. Do you know about Athena? (ex Cohen attorneys)

ALPA National is a lawyer empire. A legal fee juggernaut. Its not going to be easy to dislodge those people. And reform them? Forget it.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Check when your own pilots sue its union it needs a lot of defense. Also if one of our guys sued DPA for a DFR how do you think they would fair financially? New association and all.

Not an attack, a serious question.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Why don't we wait to see if there's an association before you start the fear mongering.

Carl

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Nu;
I dunno, the reps from 20 seem to be taking the lead for their pilots. The SLC reps seem to be forcing some issues, the ATL reps seem to be sticking with the idea of change and communication. I want to see how these guys perform at the BOD. I want to give the third of our reps that were just voted in on a platform of listening and change a chance to do just that. After all it is these same reps that will vote at the BOD.

I know I have a a few reps that listen and take notes when I offer suggestions. Better yet they use them. I see that as significant progress. I want to give them the opportunity to go up to National and see if they can do what they say they want to do. They want accountability and I want to see them make people accountable. Most of us like our LEC and DALPA guys so lets trust them to go knock some heads around.

Do I like the ineffectiveness that our current National President has? Nope not on your life. I also do not think he has a snowballs chance in winning. If he does win I will question the process.

Like I have said, I do not mind that you guys want to force the issue and make ALPA accountable for their actions or inaction. I am just stating that it is my belief that ALPA can and will react to this. They have no choice. I agree that Unit One and Two's pay has always gone up when ours has not. I want them to realize the environment they are in. I suspect that they will realize that if they push the issue they will realize that UAUA and DAL will break off and ALPA will be in CH 11 or 7. They will be without a lot of their money either way. I suspect that this dialogue has been going on for quite some time before DPA came to these boards or was even a solid idea. It may in fact force many of these and other issues to the front burner, and I have no issue with that.

In the end my argument as been that the structure of ALPA offers more benefits than that of a lose federation of independent associations. This is where my "fears" of "unintended consequences" comes from. It is not that I have no issue with the excesses many of you see.

Things I want changed:
1) Excess in spending for many of the items you all raise.

2) Better leases of business space we use for our associations business. DALPA has done a good job at this.

3) A more direct process for electing our National Leaders. Some sort of electoral college type set up or direct vote by the rank and file for these people. I also want an accumulator in the system that allows only the reps to recall/impeach and not the rank and file. It is needed for stability

4) I would like to see some to all of the executive managers not the pilots but the employees that last administration to administration to be steam lined. (Cut Fat)

5) I would like to see actual positions taken on many issues. Not rhetoric but defendable positions not political speak. IMO it is ok to lose and be on the wrong side of an issue occasionally.

The difference is that I beleive that the pilots that are our and other MEC's reps have it within them to effect these changes. I do hope a few of them can be put on the agenda this time around. I want to allow the process to work because there are so many benefit to ALPA that the average line guy does not see unless they are in some serious trouble. There are also benefits to working in this sort of structure that you cannot assign a value to. Losing these items will result in opportunities for many parties to take advantage of the power vacuum that will result.

I have addressed in previous posts some of these items so go look at my 30 or so posts in here. I personally hear everything you are saying and do not disagree that some things need to change, I just think the vehicle for change is already in place.

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

I agree with most of your points on the DPA, but this is something that we have to think of. A young association will be inherently vulnerable for a time while it is in its infancy. We have to have a solid plan in place... a good offense requires an exceptional defense.

Originally Posted by Check Essential

Carl-
You only hit on two of the attorneys. There are several more.

Plus, if you go to the detail list of itemized expenditures for ALPA National available on that same gov't. website you will find that our high paid staff attorneys need a lot of help.
Several million dollars goes to Cohen, Weiss and Simon every single year.

And it gets worse. Do you know about Athena? (ex Cohen attorneys)

ALPA National is a lawyer empire. A legal fee juggernaut. Its not going to be easy to dislodge those people. And reform them? Forget it.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

This has been asked an answered a number of times already on this very thread...but I'll repeat for ???th time:

Here's how things could be very different: No ALPA bylaws and legal committees that make rules and hamstring our local officials who do try to do good work. Next, no incredibly bloated bureaucracy...see my earlier post of just some of the salaries paid to administrators. Lastly, MEMRAT votes with honest communication rather than, "If you vote this down, we're sunk! You'll lose everything. Your families will starve. Is that what you want?" The company will give nothing more...they'll shut the doors rather than move one inch more...you HAVE to vote yes for this."

It's that type of "communication" that has led to so many yes votes based on extreme fear orchestrated by ALPA national lawyers. ACL keeps talking about this vote being based on anger. He couldn't have misread this movement more. ALPA national and its supporters like ACL, slowplay, etal ignore the fear mongering that has been the hallmark of ALPA national, while smearing this movement with the epithet of "anger."

Carl

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

Okay, this is hilarious. You tout the "professional negotiators" that DPA is pushing. So we hire professional lawyers who are considered the best labor attorneys in the country and a professional investment banker to help us negotiate and then you whine about their fees.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Don't go here unless you are ready to really be angry. I'll give an extremely short recap below:

General manager......$411,100
Chief Counsel..........$411,100
Contract Admin.......$242,800
Web Architect........$129,800
Chief economist......$314,300
Staff attorney........$244,500
Lobbyist................$177,600
Finance director......$240,500
Real estate mgr.......$137,900
Ops manager...........$204,300

Again, this is an extremely short portion of the list for 2009.

Tsquare, does this partially answer your question?

Carl