Delta Pilots Association
09-22-2010, 12:58 PM
#421
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD80
Posts: 394
X
09-22-2010, 01:25 PM
#422
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Any major union should make it a point to explain the bait and switch ticketing going on in the industry today. This should be required communication to passengers by law in my opinion. Not just that you are on DCI for example but what that means (separate maintenance, training, pay scales...an altogether different company. Would ALPA ever lobby for this? No.
When our furloughed guys and gals hit the street after Sept. 11 at the Majors and the regionals hired thousands, did national do anything for these furloughed pilots? I'm not talking about the medical part that our own respective pilots provided, (thank you again, btw). It wasn't right and it was a windfall for the regional guys, which is why ALPA's hands were tied. ACL, were you one of the beneficiaries during this time at the regionals? Watching your job being outsourced directly to cheaper labor while your own union doesn't stand up would have given you a different perspective on ALPA.
Dawgs
When our furloughed guys and gals hit the street after Sept. 11 at the Majors and the regionals hired thousands, did national do anything for these furloughed pilots? I'm not talking about the medical part that our own respective pilots provided, (thank you again, btw). It wasn't right and it was a windfall for the regional guys, which is why ALPA's hands were tied. ACL, were you one of the beneficiaries during this time at the regionals? Watching your job being outsourced directly to cheaper labor while your own union doesn't stand up would have given you a different perspective on ALPA.
Dawgs
09-22-2010, 01:37 PM
#424
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,913
09-22-2010, 01:40 PM
#425
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,544
DAWGS,
Why would ALPA/DPA/APA or any organization expend energy and money to push/lobby for the inevitable side effects of the very same things they willingly voted for, in good times and in bad, including MEMRAT? In other words, if you had the unity, muscle and mindset to do something like that, you (collectively, not you personally) wouldn't have been infected with the mentality that sold the flying to manegement for the express purpose of shopping it around to the lowest outsourced bidder in the first place.
IOW, fix the mentality and it won't be an issue, other than the costs involved, and there WILL be costs. In good times you will have to take significantly less of a raise. In bad times you will have to take even deeper cuts. Is there 51% unity to push for it anyway? If there isn't, then don't expect any major effort to address what was agreed upon by majority anyway. It starts and ends with the membership and what is important to them.
Why would ALPA/DPA/APA or any organization expend energy and money to push/lobby for the inevitable side effects of the very same things they willingly voted for, in good times and in bad, including MEMRAT? In other words, if you had the unity, muscle and mindset to do something like that, you (collectively, not you personally) wouldn't have been infected with the mentality that sold the flying to manegement for the express purpose of shopping it around to the lowest outsourced bidder in the first place.
IOW, fix the mentality and it won't be an issue, other than the costs involved, and there WILL be costs. In good times you will have to take significantly less of a raise. In bad times you will have to take even deeper cuts. Is there 51% unity to push for it anyway? If there isn't, then don't expect any major effort to address what was agreed upon by majority anyway. It starts and ends with the membership and what is important to them.
09-22-2010, 01:41 PM
#426
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,913
Heyas ACL,
Look through the DALPA MEC Policy Manual, ALPA Bylaws or even Robert's Rules of Order.
Show me where it's "legal" to receive resolutions and not act upon them (up or down) at the meeting where they are presented or the next meeting at the latest.
Now call and ask your rep why they permit this to happen. NOT the reason they do it, not the reason they SAY they do it, but under what authority that permits them to do it.
You might be surprised by the answer.
It doesn't matter. This new group will get ROTFLStomped. There is WAY, WAY too much money at stake, and not nearly enough USAir-type unity (hate the reason, not the resolve) to pull it off. In the end, slick words and soon-to-be-broken promises will woo this group back into their somnolence.
Nu
Look through the DALPA MEC Policy Manual, ALPA Bylaws or even Robert's Rules of Order.
Show me where it's "legal" to receive resolutions and not act upon them (up or down) at the meeting where they are presented or the next meeting at the latest.
Now call and ask your rep why they permit this to happen. NOT the reason they do it, not the reason they SAY they do it, but under what authority that permits them to do it.
You might be surprised by the answer.
It doesn't matter. This new group will get ROTFLStomped. There is WAY, WAY too much money at stake, and not nearly enough USAir-type unity (hate the reason, not the resolve) to pull it off. In the end, slick words and soon-to-be-broken promises will woo this group back into their somnolence.
Nu
09-22-2010, 01:43 PM
#427
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Dawgs;
I will answer a question with a question. Can DPA do better in this situation for furloughed pilots? Will they have the scope of influence to force the issue on other carriers?
I was honking mad that scope was relaxed and the regionals were allowed to explode. It stifled everyone's career progression. Each Major MEC's bargaining unit and those that voted for it are to blame for these scope changes. (Hindsight is always 20/20 so lets use it) Ch 11 is further to blame. Looking at FAE figures and trying to save them at all costs is to blame. I blame the national lack of unity and a "me" mentality that a name or organizational change will not fix. It has to come from each pilot.
In fact if you look at the domino that started it all, it started with UsAir and now they are not part of ALPA. Quite coincidental.
Scope sales were a band aid that did not last. It has in the end lead to where we are today with a great majority of people placing blame every which way. I look at all of it as lessons learned that better never be repeated. Scope sales did not help me one bit. It sure did not help anyone I know.
I will also state that the regional guys I know want scope tightened at all costs. They hate that they are faced with the possibility that they are stuck.
I will answer a question with a question. Can DPA do better in this situation for furloughed pilots? Will they have the scope of influence to force the issue on other carriers?
I was honking mad that scope was relaxed and the regionals were allowed to explode. It stifled everyone's career progression. Each Major MEC's bargaining unit and those that voted for it are to blame for these scope changes. (Hindsight is always 20/20 so lets use it) Ch 11 is further to blame. Looking at FAE figures and trying to save them at all costs is to blame. I blame the national lack of unity and a "me" mentality that a name or organizational change will not fix. It has to come from each pilot.
In fact if you look at the domino that started it all, it started with UsAir and now they are not part of ALPA. Quite coincidental.
Scope sales were a band aid that did not last. It has in the end lead to where we are today with a great majority of people placing blame every which way. I look at all of it as lessons learned that better never be repeated. Scope sales did not help me one bit. It sure did not help anyone I know.
I will also state that the regional guys I know want scope tightened at all costs. They hate that they are faced with the possibility that they are stuck.
09-22-2010, 01:47 PM
#428
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Nonsense! That is what the management negotiators would like us to think and one of the biggest reasons we need to retain the services of objective, impartial (not ALPA), professional negotiators and attorneys.
09-22-2010, 01:53 PM
#429
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,913
Dawgs;
I will answer a question with a question. Can DPA do better in this situation for furloughed pilots? Will they have the scope of influence to force the issue on other carriers?
I was honking mad that scope was relaxed and the regionals were allowed to explode. It stifled everyone's career progression. Each Major MEC's bargaining unit and those that voted for it are to blame for these scope changes. (Hindsight is always 20/20 so lets use it) Ch 11 is further to blame. Looking at FAE figures and trying to save them at all costs is to blame. I blame the national lack of unity and a "me" mentality that a name or organizational change will not fix. It has to come from each pilot.
In fact if you look at the domino that started it all, it started with UsAir and now they are not part of ALPA. Quite coincidental.
Scope sales were a band aid that did not last. It has in the end lead to where we are today with a great majority of people placing blame every which way. I look at all of it as lessons learned that better never be repeated. Scope sales did not help me one bit. It sure did not help anyone I know.
I will also state that the regional guys I know want scope tightened at all costs. They hate that they are faced with the possibility that they are stuck.
I will answer a question with a question. Can DPA do better in this situation for furloughed pilots? Will they have the scope of influence to force the issue on other carriers?
I was honking mad that scope was relaxed and the regionals were allowed to explode. It stifled everyone's career progression. Each Major MEC's bargaining unit and those that voted for it are to blame for these scope changes. (Hindsight is always 20/20 so lets use it) Ch 11 is further to blame. Looking at FAE figures and trying to save them at all costs is to blame. I blame the national lack of unity and a "me" mentality that a name or organizational change will not fix. It has to come from each pilot.
In fact if you look at the domino that started it all, it started with UsAir and now they are not part of ALPA. Quite coincidental.
Scope sales were a band aid that did not last. It has in the end lead to where we are today with a great majority of people placing blame every which way. I look at all of it as lessons learned that better never be repeated. Scope sales did not help me one bit. It sure did not help anyone I know.
I will also state that the regional guys I know want scope tightened at all costs. They hate that they are faced with the possibility that they are stuck.
Point of order:
The first code-share jets at "other than mainline" were BAE 146s flown by Air Willie.
The first 'RJ' RJs had Comair markings and carried a Delta Code.
And those RJs were given away WITHOUT the arm twisting of a Bankruptcy Court. Which was worse?
Nu
09-22-2010, 01:56 PM
#430
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Numerically APA was larger, had more votes, ALPA was not going to win that one. So maybe it was better to try and negotiate a better outcome for your members, than to fight a losing battle.
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