Delta Pilots Association
01-09-2011, 08:21 AM
#4051
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I think satchip is somewhat correct in his argument that C2K was an aberration. BUt I still maintain it was by design. Leo the CEO knew BK was in the works.. and he would get those rates back. Wave the money under the pilots' noses and they will sign off on anything. He did... we did.. and he eventually got it all with very little additional effort. We didn't even protest when he and the biyatch michelle designed those SERPS. I heard not one single word from the ASSociation. We should have gone ballistic. But I had heard that there were other CEOs that chastised him for giving us the rates he did on C2K... yup.. he was crazy... like a fox.
01-09-2011, 08:46 AM
#4052
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B-7ER JFK
Posts: 931
........ Are you really an airline pilot? Because it just doesn't sound like you're "rooting for the home team" so to speak. 
.......Wow! Again... all I can say is, "who's side are you on?" Do you really have so little regard for the profession you have chosen? (If this is indeed your profession.)
.......Wow! Again... all I can say is, "who's side are you on?" Do you really have so little regard for the profession you have chosen? (If this is indeed your profession.).......It is very troubling that we have some folks like yourself in this profession who have so little regard for what we do. Twenty years ago, you would have been laughed out of the room saying the stuff you're saying. Sadly, now there is a percentage (a very small percentage in my experience) who agree with you.
I agree that the percentage is small, but I've come to understand this thinking. It's based on an extreme level of selfishness. The motivation is simple: Keep the profession steady at current levels or even slightly declining, and that will allow airlines to have a higher profit margin. They believe this higher profit margin is the best chance they have to not ever be furloughed or experience any kind of pay interruption. One of them even said: "I don't want to be paid the best, I want to be paid the longest."
This thinking is of course misguided, but the motivation is clear.
Carl
This thinking is of course misguided, but the motivation is clear.
Carl
01-09-2011, 09:25 AM
#4053
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
You have not heard that out of THEIR mouths. I'm very concerned that the chairman has no concerns about our current Section 1 at all. That's due to what he's actually said. If you've heard anything from the FO rep, that's more than I've heard.
You may have heard something good from our sec/treas ... as I have. But he doesn't have a vote.
Carl
You may have heard something good from our sec/treas ... as I have. But he doesn't have a vote.
Carl
You have made your concerns known to your reps and your Master Chairman. I suspect that when the time comes you will hear the majority position and it will include scope.
01-09-2011, 09:37 AM
#4054
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
First of all, take out the emotion from this argument. Look at it from an objective, analytical point of view and we can discuss this.
Eventually, the trash guy may make more than me. In fact in NYC I bet the trash guy does make more than me.
But as time and technology advance, our skill set becomes less relevant. For example, how much do stage coach drivers make? Buggy whip makers? Navigators? Flight engineers? There will come a time when pilots won't be in airplanes any more. Then our skills will be worth zero, or close too it.
Personally, I think we have reached a floor on that graph and it will go up for a period of time. Someone posted that management has learned how to operate in a deregulated environment. I think that is true to an extent and industry consolidation will enable some pricing power that will shore up industry bottom lines. That will enable us to see some wage increases. But be assured, the trend line is still there.
Your second paragraph shows a complete misunderstanding of the laws of economics. ( I apologize in advance if took that as a personal insult, it's not meant to be.) How can more of us, supply; and fewer required, demand; equal more value? Don't equate an employer's ability to pay more, your efficiency argument, with labor value.
You are right about one thing. Twenty years ago I would have been laughed out of a crew room. I doubt many would have foreseen the advance of technology, the rise of outsourcing, and the other misfortunes that have befuddled our profession. They may have laughed at me, but they also laughed at the guy who warned that "those little jets" would be the bane of our existence.
Eventually, the trash guy may make more than me. In fact in NYC I bet the trash guy does make more than me.
But as time and technology advance, our skill set becomes less relevant. For example, how much do stage coach drivers make? Buggy whip makers? Navigators? Flight engineers? There will come a time when pilots won't be in airplanes any more. Then our skills will be worth zero, or close too it. Personally, I think we have reached a floor on that graph and it will go up for a period of time. Someone posted that management has learned how to operate in a deregulated environment. I think that is true to an extent and industry consolidation will enable some pricing power that will shore up industry bottom lines. That will enable us to see some wage increases. But be assured, the trend line is still there.
Your second paragraph shows a complete misunderstanding of the laws of economics. ( I apologize in advance if took that as a personal insult, it's not meant to be.) How can more of us, supply; and fewer required, demand; equal more value? Don't equate an employer's ability to pay more, your efficiency argument, with labor value.
You are right about one thing. Twenty years ago I would have been laughed out of a crew room. I doubt many would have foreseen the advance of technology, the rise of outsourcing, and the other misfortunes that have befuddled our profession. They may have laughed at me, but they also laughed at the guy who warned that "those little jets" would be the bane of our existence.
01-09-2011, 09:44 AM
#4055
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: No to large RJs
Posts: 369
Originally Posted by satchip
Natural surpluses of pilots as well as relaxed entry requirements when shortages loomed have served to dilute our value greatly. Technology has also reduced our value. What you ask is impossible. Pilots are less valuable than they were in 1978. There are more of us, it's easier to make us, and our skills have been supplanted by technology to a great extent. Times they are a changin'.
Natural surpluses of pilots as well as relaxed entry requirements when shortages loomed have served to dilute our value greatly. Technology has also reduced our value. What you ask is impossible. Pilots are less valuable than they were in 1978. There are more of us, it's easier to make us, and our skills have been supplanted by technology to a great extent. Times they are a changin'.
When was the last time you landed a plane full of pax with x-winds at limits? When was your last engine failure? What was your biggest oh-$h.t experience that showed you your limits? How did tech help you out in these instances? I would guess very little to none. These are experiences and judgement gained that no amount of tech can replace. This experience and judgement is what makes a Professional Pilot. Tech simply aids that professionalism.
Even if tech could replicate the Professional Pilot, tech crashes. Planes have redundant systems and we know they can all fail. Look no further than the A380 incident when 1 of 4 engines came apart. How many redundant systems failed? Who was responsible for a saving a small city worth of people. The Professional Pilot! Even if pax believe this non-sense about our jobs that you are promoting, they are smart enough to realize computers crash, communications fail and they want someone there who is capable of saving them from technology.
After reading many of your post, please do us all a favor, if you are in fact an airline pilot and find something else to do. You obviously think very little of your skills and are trying to convince others of what little value the professional pilot offers based on your own low self-worth.
01-09-2011, 12:46 PM
#4056
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,704
I think satchip is somewhat correct in his argument that C2K was an aberration. BUt I still maintain it was by design. Leo the CEO knew BK was in the works.. and he would get those rates back. Wave the money under the pilots' noses and they will sign off on anything. He did... we did.. and he eventually got it all with very little additional effort. We didn't even protest when he and the biyatch michelle designed those SERPS. I heard not one single word from the ASSociation. We should have gone ballistic. But I had heard that there were other CEOs that chastised him for giving us the rates he did on C2K... yup.. he was crazy... like a fox.
I am not sure if you were around for contract 2001 but what your saying makes no sense.
The first key point is the vast majority of Leo Mullins compensation was in stock options. He lost them all in the Chapter 11 filing. He also saw his monthly compensation and all his perks cut out. The only thing he retained was the money placed in the Serps for the top 30 offices at Delta. His Serp was worth about 16 million. Chicken feed compared to the one time value of the options he lost. I think he once had BS model value of over 100 million.
The second thing is the compensation itself. The rates we saw in the 2001 contract were actually negotiated for the 737NG,767-400 and 777 several years before contract 2k. Once we set the bar with those rates UAL followed with a completed contract using those rates as a baseline. There was never much dispute over what are pay rates would end up being and the difference in pay rates from the start between the company and DALPA were minor since everyone new the rates would be based off those already negotiated for the newer aircraft.
The contract itself was 99 percent complete in April of 2001 and finally signed in July of 2001. At that time Delta was in outstanding financial shape with low debt and tons of cash. We were coming off 3 years of record profits. If you are saying Leo knew what was coming with 911 and then the economic collapse and knew that in 5 years we would file chapter 11 I find that a bit of a stretch. In fact we filed chapter 11 after the amendable date of contract 2k. The scope changes in contract 2k did increase the number of jets allowed with up to 69 seats but specifically scoped out the EMB170/175. When you look at everything I don't see how you can possible conclude that it was all planned!
To conclude that you would have to say that well before contract 2k when we negotiated the rates on the new equipment Leo knew that he would be filing chapter 11 7 years later and even knowing that structured his compensation package such that he would almost certainly lose almost all of it. I just don't buy that.
One last minor point. Delta management was heavily criticized for trying to hard to stay out of Chapter 11 and running their cash dangerously low. Wall Street felt we should have filed at least a year earlier.
01-09-2011, 02:06 PM
#4057
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
I am not sure if you were around for contract 2001 but what your saying makes no sense.
The first key point is the vast majority of Leo Mullins compensation was in stock options. He lost them all in the Chapter 11 filing. He also saw his monthly compensation and all his perks cut out. The only thing he retained was the money placed in the Serps for the top 30 offices at Delta. His Serp was worth about 16 million. Chicken feed compared to the one time value of the options he lost. I think he once had BS model value of over 100 million.
The second thing is the compensation itself. The rates we saw in the 2001 contract were actually negotiated for the 737NG,767-400 and 777 several years before contract 2k. Once we set the bar with those rates UAL followed with a completed contract using those rates as a baseline. There was never much dispute over what are pay rates would end up being and the difference in pay rates from the start between the company and DALPA were minor since everyone new the rates would be based off those already negotiated for the newer aircraft.
The contract itself was 99 percent complete in April of 2001 and finally signed in July of 2001. At that time Delta was in outstanding financial shape with low debt and tons of cash. We were coming off 3 years of record profits. If you are saying Leo knew what was coming with 911 and then the economic collapse and knew that in 5 years we would file chapter 11 I find that a bit of a stretch. In fact we filed chapter 11 after the amendable date of contract 2k. The scope changes in contract 2k did increase the number of jets allowed with up to 69 seats but specifically scoped out the EMB170/175. When you look at everything I don't see how you can possible conclude that it was all planned!
To conclude that you would have to say that well before contract 2k when we negotiated the rates on the new equipment Leo knew that he would be filing chapter 11 7 years later and even knowing that structured his compensation package such that he would almost certainly lose almost all of it. I just don't buy that.
One last minor point. Delta management was heavily criticized for trying to hard to stay out of Chapter 11 and running their cash dangerously low. Wall Street felt we should have filed at least a year earlier.
The first key point is the vast majority of Leo Mullins compensation was in stock options. He lost them all in the Chapter 11 filing. He also saw his monthly compensation and all his perks cut out. The only thing he retained was the money placed in the Serps for the top 30 offices at Delta. His Serp was worth about 16 million. Chicken feed compared to the one time value of the options he lost. I think he once had BS model value of over 100 million.
The second thing is the compensation itself. The rates we saw in the 2001 contract were actually negotiated for the 737NG,767-400 and 777 several years before contract 2k. Once we set the bar with those rates UAL followed with a completed contract using those rates as a baseline. There was never much dispute over what are pay rates would end up being and the difference in pay rates from the start between the company and DALPA were minor since everyone new the rates would be based off those already negotiated for the newer aircraft.
The contract itself was 99 percent complete in April of 2001 and finally signed in July of 2001. At that time Delta was in outstanding financial shape with low debt and tons of cash. We were coming off 3 years of record profits. If you are saying Leo knew what was coming with 911 and then the economic collapse and knew that in 5 years we would file chapter 11 I find that a bit of a stretch. In fact we filed chapter 11 after the amendable date of contract 2k. The scope changes in contract 2k did increase the number of jets allowed with up to 69 seats but specifically scoped out the EMB170/175. When you look at everything I don't see how you can possible conclude that it was all planned!
To conclude that you would have to say that well before contract 2k when we negotiated the rates on the new equipment Leo knew that he would be filing chapter 11 7 years later and even knowing that structured his compensation package such that he would almost certainly lose almost all of it. I just don't buy that.
One last minor point. Delta management was heavily criticized for trying to hard to stay out of Chapter 11 and running their cash dangerously low. Wall Street felt we should have filed at least a year earlier.
Riiiiiiight. So it was standard practice for CEOs to negotiate bankruptcy proof, taxes paid retirement plans? And not... one.... word.. from the association. Not... one... Sorry, I don't buy your argument. He knew what he had placed in motion. And on your minor point... they also know that they have labor as their ATM. The damage that man did to this company is mind boggling... It took a merger to undo it or we would still be peeling back the onion.
01-09-2011, 05:37 PM
#4058
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
01-09-2011, 05:39 PM
#4059
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
You continue to promote what the public thinks is true with regards to technology. I wonder if you truly are an airline pilot. I have flown no-tech to high-tech cockpits and they both equally require stick and rudder, feel, instinct and judgement gained from experience to operate safely. The higher tech cockpit requires much more attention than no-tech and much more training.
When was the last time you landed a plane full of pax with x-winds at limits? When was your last engine failure? What was your biggest oh-$h.t experience that showed you your limits? How did tech help you out in these instances? I would guess very little to none. These are experiences and judgement gained that no amount of tech can replace. This experience and judgement is what makes a Professional Pilot. Tech simply aids that professionalism.
Even if tech could replicate the Professional Pilot, tech crashes. Planes have redundant systems and we know they can all fail. Look no further than the A380 incident when 1 of 4 engines came apart. How many redundant systems failed? Who was responsible for a saving a small city worth of people. The Professional Pilot! Even if pax believe this non-sense about our jobs that you are promoting, they are smart enough to realize computers crash, communications fail and they want someone there who is capable of saving them from technology.
After reading many of your post, please do us all a favor, if you are in fact an airline pilot and find something else to do. You obviously think very little of your skills and are trying to convince others of what little value the professional pilot offers based on your own low self-worth.
When was the last time you landed a plane full of pax with x-winds at limits? When was your last engine failure? What was your biggest oh-$h.t experience that showed you your limits? How did tech help you out in these instances? I would guess very little to none. These are experiences and judgement gained that no amount of tech can replace. This experience and judgement is what makes a Professional Pilot. Tech simply aids that professionalism.
Even if tech could replicate the Professional Pilot, tech crashes. Planes have redundant systems and we know they can all fail. Look no further than the A380 incident when 1 of 4 engines came apart. How many redundant systems failed? Who was responsible for a saving a small city worth of people. The Professional Pilot! Even if pax believe this non-sense about our jobs that you are promoting, they are smart enough to realize computers crash, communications fail and they want someone there who is capable of saving them from technology.
After reading many of your post, please do us all a favor, if you are in fact an airline pilot and find something else to do. You obviously think very little of your skills and are trying to convince others of what little value the professional pilot offers based on your own low self-worth.
Carl
01-09-2011, 06:53 PM
#4060
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
Just trying to clarify your position.
Good luck with the DTW scope communications, in writing, of course.
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