Delta Pilots Association
01-06-2011, 08:32 PM
#3971
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Nothing. The key is getting management to do it on their own. Our task is to show them that they will have a better more profitable airline if we bring back the flying. I am still baffled why you feel you need to make personal attacks to make your point. If you have a good point, make it. When you attack people you just make yourself look like you have no argument.
My point about you in particular is that you defend all things alpa no matter what the cause. They are always right, and there IS no opposing view that has any value... in your eyes. My secondary point was to illustrate that for those of us that don't fall lockstep in with the alpa view.. there is always a "cost" to achieve whatever we want. You always have all the answers.. and I saw an opportunity to get you to put your money where your mouth is.
01-06-2011, 08:33 PM
#3972
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
You began this by saying that Scope is never on the table. Now you state what actually happens in bk. Your correction to your own original statement is your contradiction.
Scope relief isn't on the table, it's the assessed dollar amount that is. If the judge had abrogated your contract like he did ours, he would have had to assign a dollar amount to the 76 seat jets and taken that money out of the rest of the contract keeping scope intact. There is no legal basis for a company saying that scope relief is paramount to the company reorganization plan and a larger dollar amount isn't.
Please post the SEC filings that show "money from regional growth", "stock sales" and "other miscellaneous proceeds" being "sent" to the Northwest pilot pension plan. I'll wait.
You can start here: EDGAR Pro
Caving in on Scope started decades ago. Now pay close attention to this: decades ago, the NWA pilot pension plan was so OVERFUNDED, that NWA management went to court and won the ability to take the overfunded portion for themselves. They said it was their money and not the pilots. A judge agreed. Now here's a question you must ask yourself and your supposed family: Why would an overfunded pension need a Scope cave-in to save itself from being overfunded?
So are you saying that NWA management took the over-funded pension plan money and gave it to themselves? That's illegal. Or is it because by law you have to report over-funded pensions as taxable income?
You working for less funds your personal financial circumstances because you're apparently unhireable by a major. You've decided to take it out on the pilots of the majors. I've always wondered why some of the RJ lifers spewed this kind of divisive hate to the new RJ pilots. I still don't know the answer to that, but it's interesting to know that I'm speaking to one.
Carl
Scope relief isn't on the table, it's the assessed dollar amount that is. If the judge had abrogated your contract like he did ours, he would have had to assign a dollar amount to the 76 seat jets and taken that money out of the rest of the contract keeping scope intact. There is no legal basis for a company saying that scope relief is paramount to the company reorganization plan and a larger dollar amount isn't.
Please post the SEC filings that show "money from regional growth", "stock sales" and "other miscellaneous proceeds" being "sent" to the Northwest pilot pension plan. I'll wait.
You can start here: EDGAR Pro
Caving in on Scope started decades ago. Now pay close attention to this: decades ago, the NWA pilot pension plan was so OVERFUNDED, that NWA management went to court and won the ability to take the overfunded portion for themselves. They said it was their money and not the pilots. A judge agreed. Now here's a question you must ask yourself and your supposed family: Why would an overfunded pension need a Scope cave-in to save itself from being overfunded?
So are you saying that NWA management took the over-funded pension plan money and gave it to themselves? That's illegal. Or is it because by law you have to report over-funded pensions as taxable income?
You working for less funds your personal financial circumstances because you're apparently unhireable by a major. You've decided to take it out on the pilots of the majors. I've always wondered why some of the RJ lifers spewed this kind of divisive hate to the new RJ pilots. I still don't know the answer to that, but it's interesting to know that I'm speaking to one.
Carl
Who founded all these puppy mill companies like Gulfstream academy? Oh that's right, senior major airline pilots...........
01-06-2011, 08:52 PM
#3973
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
What started me off was the complaining on here that regional pilots are responsible for what has happened to this profession, this is clearly not the case. You have an industry that is exactly the way pilots want it to be. Every YES vote over the years attests to that fact! Furthermore, I was in diapers decades ago, and you're blaming me for something that happened then? You say that blaming major pilots is wrong, but blaming regional pilots is righteous, hypocritical perhaps?
Who founded all these puppy mill companies like Gulfstream academy? Oh that's right, senior major airline pilots...........
Who founded all these puppy mill companies like Gulfstream academy? Oh that's right, senior major airline pilots...........
Carl
01-07-2011, 12:55 AM
#3974
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
That is simply wrong. The stated fear at that time was the complete ruination of the airline. This is what management stated would happen unless they got what American had with American Eagle, etc. At no time did anyone say: "Let's try to get more money for the remaining major pilots by giving management the right to sell our flying to a lower bidding RJ carrier." That never happened.
That would be correct if it were true. But that is NOT what happened.
I cannot believe the BS and hate mongering that you guys were filled with by the senior RJ pilot lifers.
Carl
That would be correct if it were true. But that is NOT what happened.
I cannot believe the BS and hate mongering that you guys were filled with by the senior RJ pilot lifers.
Carl
01-07-2011, 07:02 AM
#3975
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
My point about you in particular is that you defend all things alpa no matter what the cause. They are always right, and there IS no opposing view that has any value... in your eyes. My secondary point was to illustrate that for those of us that don't fall lockstep in with the alpa view.. there is always a "cost" to achieve whatever we want. You always have all the answers.. and I saw an opportunity to get you to put your money where your mouth is.
01-07-2011, 07:08 AM
#3976
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
My point about you in particular is that you defend all things alpa no matter what the cause. They are always right, and there IS no opposing view that has any value... in your eyes. My secondary point was to illustrate that for those of us that don't fall lockstep in with the alpa view.. there is always a "cost" to achieve whatever we want. You always have all the answers.. and I saw an opportunity to get you to put your money where your mouth is.
Why should it surprise you that those same principles should apply to a multi billion pilot contract. If you want to make reserve better, there will be a cost. So what. Maybe the MEC decides that cost is worthwhile for the pilot group or maybe they don't, that's democracy in action. If they decide it is worthwhile, then it will impact gains in other sections of the contract. Those are just immutable facts and should not vex you. Instead, you merely need to convince your fellow pilots and your LEC reps that those costs are more important than other costs. We have 12,000 different opinions about how our contract should go, so don't be surprised if you opinion is not followed 100%.
I have never said your opposing view has no value, it is just if we disagree then you are the skeptic and I am the evil one who is keeping you down. Can't we both just be two people who disagree, why do you have to try to drag me down just because we disagree on tactics. I have a right to express my opinion just as forcefully as you do.
01-07-2011, 07:08 AM
#3977
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
DAL88;
I have never read an insinuation that ALPA is without fault. Hindsight is 20/20. There are plenty of things that the passage of time and perspective have lead many to see that yes, better decisions could have been made. That does not mean that ALPA is not the best option. It means that life is life. We all make the best decisions we can based on the information we have at the time. The history of the last ten years provides a perspective none of us previously had. That much is fact.
I have never read an insinuation that ALPA is without fault. Hindsight is 20/20. There are plenty of things that the passage of time and perspective have lead many to see that yes, better decisions could have been made. That does not mean that ALPA is not the best option. It means that life is life. We all make the best decisions we can based on the information we have at the time. The history of the last ten years provides a perspective none of us previously had. That much is fact.
01-07-2011, 08:12 AM
#3979
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Well, there is always a cost. You certainly don't think management gives us anything for free, besides water and peanuts. Everything in the contract has a cost, it will be figured by management, and every improvement you want will also come at a cost. I don't know why that is a hard concept to understand, or even one that should be a matter of contention. I am shopping for a new car, every little thing I want to add to a car, including car mats, has a cost to it. I decide what cars and what options fit my budget. If I want the V6, maybe I skip the moon roof. The choices go on and on.
Why should it surprise you that those same principles should apply to a multi billion pilot contract. If you want to make reserve better, there will be a cost. So what. Maybe the MEC decides that cost is worthwhile for the pilot group or maybe they don't, that's democracy in action. If they decide it is worthwhile, then it will impact gains in other sections of the contract. Those are just immutable facts and should not vex you. Instead, you merely need to convince your fellow pilots and your LEC reps that those costs are more important than other costs. We have 12,000 different opinions about how our contract should go, so don't be surprised if you opinion is not followed 100%.
I have never said your opposing view has no value, it is just if we disagree then you are the skeptic and I am the evil one who is keeping you down. Can't we both just be two people who disagree, why do you have to try to drag me down just because we disagree on tactics. I have a right to express my opinion just as forcefully as you do.
Why should it surprise you that those same principles should apply to a multi billion pilot contract. If you want to make reserve better, there will be a cost. So what. Maybe the MEC decides that cost is worthwhile for the pilot group or maybe they don't, that's democracy in action. If they decide it is worthwhile, then it will impact gains in other sections of the contract. Those are just immutable facts and should not vex you. Instead, you merely need to convince your fellow pilots and your LEC reps that those costs are more important than other costs. We have 12,000 different opinions about how our contract should go, so don't be surprised if you opinion is not followed 100%.
I have never said your opposing view has no value, it is just if we disagree then you are the skeptic and I am the evil one who is keeping you down. Can't we both just be two people who disagree, why do you have to try to drag me down just because we disagree on tactics. I have a right to express my opinion just as forcefully as you do.
But I digress. I do not think you are the evil one. I just see your perspective. It is one of satisfaction. Mine is not. Soldier on Gunga Din.
01-07-2011, 08:13 AM
#3980
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
DAL88;
I have never read an insinuation that ALPA is without fault. Hindsight is 20/20. There are plenty of things that the passage of time and perspective have lead many to see that yes, better decisions could have been made. That does not mean that ALPA is not the best option. It means that life is life. We all make the best decisions we can based on the information we have at the time. The history of the last ten years provides a perspective none of us previously had. That much is fact.
I have never read an insinuation that ALPA is without fault. Hindsight is 20/20. There are plenty of things that the passage of time and perspective have lead many to see that yes, better decisions could have been made. That does not mean that ALPA is not the best option. It means that life is life. We all make the best decisions we can based on the information we have at the time. The history of the last ten years provides a perspective none of us previously had. That much is fact.
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