DAL 88 Driver

Again, there is more to an "approach" than just the partial restoration number (50%). Speaking of approaches, try this analogy: Let's say we are flying an approach. The wind conditions are quite strong and gusty, so we add some airspeed for the approach. (Not 50% more airspeed, but work with me here. ) Let's say you end up having to go around on the approach. In other words, you are unsuccessful with that approach. Did you go around because you had too much airspeed? Don't know. Not enough information. That could have been a contributing factor to it, or it might not have been a factor at all. Maybe you experienced windshear and had to go around because of that. Maybe the aircraft ahead of you didn't get off the runway in time. The point is that there could be a number of reasons why your "approach" was unsuccessful... and it might not be what someone else who was not in the cockpit might initially think.

Can't disagree with any of that!

Who suggested that? Okay, nevermind, I know I've seen a few folks advocate that but unless things really start going gangbusters I don't see that happening. ACL had a pretty good suggestion. I would view this as a minimally acceptable agreement on pay, not as a starting point for negotiations. He suggested 30-5-5-5-5% for a 5-year contract. That results in a 58% increase (partial restoration) over the life of the contract and should be affordable to Delta. I think most of us want to be reasonable. The problem is that you cannot dig out of an extremely unreasonable hole with increases that would be considered reasonable under normal circumstances. These are not normal circumstances!

I don't think anyone has advocated that we "march in & pound fists screaming until it gets done." I don't have all the nuts and bolts of a plan to get C2K plus inflation, and I haven't seen any specifics from either ALPA or DPA. I'm not even sure if that can quite be accomplished. What I do know is that we are extremely unlikely to achieve restoration or anything near it if we do not set our sights on it as our goal.

What is ALPA's plan to achieve this? I haven't seen anything other than "proactive engagement" (which has basically gotten us COLA's to our BK/emergency rates so far) and a lot of talk about how large percentage increases (the kind that would be mathematically required to achieve restoration) are "unrealistic" and "unreasonable."

What it comes down to me is this. I'd rather go with someone who is actually trying, rather than someone who is obviously not. If DALPA wants support from folks like me who expect this career to be put back on its tracks, they better start showing that this is their objective. Otherwise, by default, I'll vote to press on with DPA in a heartbeat.

Columbia

You mentioned a few pages ago that one great contract item to grab is vacation touching any trip causes the trip to disappear. That sound nice, but is there any way it could be implemented with PBS? It's obviously easy with traditional line bidding-find a line that matches up with your vacation and wala, 3 days off, 4 day trip, 7 day vacation, 4 day trip, 3 days off turns into 20 days in a row-OFF.
Just thinking out loud. Thx.

FlyingViking

Retirement is anoher option for you Sir, just sayin....

Columbia

"Retirement? Hell, I just got here." A few regionals have this vacation item. Did you mean to respond to someone else? What are you "sayin....."?

FedElta

Hey Columbia,

Based on my former life, here's how to do it, even with PBS : after PBS lines are published each month, you are allowed to " slide your entire block of vacation days a total of 5 days in either direction. Any trip that the "slide" touches is dropped, but you retain the pay credit.

After the "slide" you may further "expand" your vacation in either direction as long as you don't bump into trips that drop more than a 1day of vacation greater than your vacation day award. Again, you keep the pay credit.

No limit to trips dropped with the "slide" and fine tuning with "expand" to improve your schedule and gain an additional day off, at full pay.

There has to exist an appropriate amount of time after the bid is awarded each month, to allow vacation holders to slide/ expand their vacations.....these dropped trips can be added to partial lines to make up additional lines of flying instead of dumping them on reserves.....

PBS does not have to be the death of the former good deal vacations. ACL, what say you ?

Regards

FlyingViking

What I'm saying is; you posted your wet dream of 20 days off for a week vacation. Yeah it might sound good, but to use that as an argument to establish new representation will not be met with goodwill from many people. Unless you haven't noticed, this thread is about DPA and why we should all choose to spread the word and get all Delta pilots to know about DPA, then vote it in or out. Simple enough....

Carl Spackler

It really is just that simple.

Carl

Columbia

My "Wet Dream?" I simply asked a poster (and mod) how to best go about proposing something which currently exists at some regionals, nothing more, nothing less. Nowhere have I used that as an argument for dalpa-nowhere.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ma...tml#post912723

"I wish so many people weren't stuck on C2K. Our contract needs way more then better pay rates to improve. C2K rates plus 30% alone does jack squat for our contract. How about reserve rules, reserve rigs vs. lineholder rigs, trip drop when it touches vacation, a complete re-write of 23G & 23K, & higher defined contributions just to name a few."

C2K payrates are meaningless by themselves.

DAL 88 Driver

I'm with you on improving in all those areas. But using the MD-88 Captain category as an example... a $60,000 annual pay increase (the difference in the current 2012 rate and the 2004 rate at 70 hrs/mo.) is NOT "meaningless." Not by any stretch of the imagination!

johnso29

The pay raise by itself is DEFINITELY meaningless. If they offered C2K plus inflation, but relieved all scope protections the pay raise would be meaningless because your 'A' seat most likely just went bye-bye.

The pay don't mean squat without a seat to earn it in.