Delta Pilots Association
12-09-2010, 01:06 PM
#3471
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Dude, there ain't gonna be any "job action". At least the legal kind. There is no way that any government, left, right, center, donkey, or elephant is going to let the largest/2nd largest airline go on strike. I don't care how much Carl stomps is feet and calls us all spineless. BTW, BOB will get you fined too. Just ask the 49rs. ( I think I got that reference right.)
I've had obssessed fans before, but they've been chicks. It's kind of creepy having a dude obssessed with you.
Cyber stalking is weird!Carl
12-09-2010, 01:06 PM
#3472
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
You know what you are to glean. Their position in relation to the rest of the industry. Whomever gets a TA next should be at least 20% above our or SWA's rates. Then the next one should jump them. If APA and UCAL are still in talks, we can get to SWA rates, plus a 10-20% without much issue, but going the extra mile will take one of these two groups getting their deals done before us.
If the scuttlebutt is correct, UCAL will have a TA early next year. Depending on where they go, APA may TA a CBA as well. That sets us up very nicely. If none of that happens, we are where we are now. We are in an industry where no one is willing to put their airlines' costs too far out in front of the competition. Arpy has been quoted saying that he is willing to wait for the other majors costs to catch up. He seems to have a ton of support with that.
None of this makes any of us happy, including me, but them the facts, and realities we are dealing with today. I am glad that we have at least a year until we need main bargaining points firmed up. It is a long time and a lot of cards have yet to be played.
If the scuttlebutt is correct, UCAL will have a TA early next year. Depending on where they go, APA may TA a CBA as well. That sets us up very nicely. If none of that happens, we are where we are now. We are in an industry where no one is willing to put their airlines' costs too far out in front of the competition. Arpy has been quoted saying that he is willing to wait for the other majors costs to catch up. He seems to have a ton of support with that.
None of this makes any of us happy, including me, but them the facts, and realities we are dealing with today. I am glad that we have at least a year until we need main bargaining points firmed up. It is a long time and a lot of cards have yet to be played.
12-09-2010, 01:13 PM
#3473
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
APA agreed to a binding TA and then ratified a CBA on or near their amendable date a few years ago, they would be approaching another section six cycle today. Not sitting in the same section six parked by the NMB.
You think I am slandering them, but many of their pilots feel the same way. All of my good friends there are frustrated at the way the talks have gone, and have come to realize that a little a few years back would have set them up nicely for today, when AMR is making money. Not that they are here, they will get a good agreement, but the money that will be in their pocket will be less then what it would have been with the other option. (Their observation, not mine) They hope for a shorter term contract so that they can be back at it when they finally announce their merger partner, but they also know that if they do not hurry it up, the two events will be one in the same.
12-09-2010, 01:17 PM
#3474
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Carl
12-09-2010, 01:37 PM
#3475
At home on the maddog!
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Position: ATL MD-88A
Posts: 2,874
Simple:
APA agreed to a binding TA and then ratified a CBA on or near their amendable date a few years ago, they would be approaching another section six cycle today. Not sitting in the same section six parked by the NMB.
You think I am slandering them, but many of their pilots feel the same way. All of my good friends there are frustrated at the way the talks have gone, and have come to realize that a little a few years back would have set them up nicely for today, when AMR is making money. Not that they are here, they will get a good agreement, but the money that will be in their pocket will be less then what it would have been with the other option. (Their observation, not mine) They hope for a shorter term contract so that they can be back at it when they finally announce their merger partner, but they also know that if they do not hurry it up, the two events will be one in the same.
APA agreed to a binding TA and then ratified a CBA on or near their amendable date a few years ago, they would be approaching another section six cycle today. Not sitting in the same section six parked by the NMB.
You think I am slandering them, but many of their pilots feel the same way. All of my good friends there are frustrated at the way the talks have gone, and have come to realize that a little a few years back would have set them up nicely for today, when AMR is making money. Not that they are here, they will get a good agreement, but the money that will be in their pocket will be less then what it would have been with the other option. (Their observation, not mine) They hope for a shorter term contract so that they can be back at it when they finally announce their merger partner, but they also know that if they do not hurry it up, the two events will be one in the same.
You are making a lot of assumptions that may or may not turn out to be true. I'd rather make my objective and my resolve to achieve my objective clear from the start. Your "pattern bargaining" strategy is like a ship without power and a rudder... just floating along and depending on the currents to take you in the general direction of where you want to go.
Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm just not willing to put the future of my career in someone else's hands based on a crystal ball prediction.
12-09-2010, 01:44 PM
#3476
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Satch,
Whatever we did on the former NWA side the summer of 2007, cost the company so much money and grief, they got rid of some of the crappy stuff in our contract.
I wouldn't even call it BOB. It was more like stress.
Unhappy pilots cost NWA money and they were more than willing to throw money and work rule relaxations at us to fix the problem. I think President Bush even called NWA's president in to the Oval Office to tell him to get his act together.
Wait. I'm repeating myself again.....
Whatever we did on the former NWA side the summer of 2007, cost the company so much money and grief, they got rid of some of the crappy stuff in our contract.
I wouldn't even call it BOB. It was more like stress.
Unhappy pilots cost NWA money and they were more than willing to throw money and work rule relaxations at us to fix the problem. I think President Bush even called NWA's president in to the Oval Office to tell him to get his act together.
Wait. I'm repeating myself again.....
It can definitely be done. NWA pilots did it. Lee did it. We could too.
Carl
12-09-2010, 02:05 PM
#3477
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Satch, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. Lexus and a beach home? On what I make? Yeah, right. I have less buying power than a narrowbody First Officer had 10 years ago! I drive a Hyundai Sonata and live in a 2500 square foot house in Arkansas. But go right ahead arguing against restoring our compensation. Keep stabbing your fellow pilots in the back and spreading the kind of misconceptions that our management likes to spread whenever negotiations are active. Maybe you'll have a management job waiting for you if you get that furlough you think you're going to get.
I've said it several times and I'll say it again. I don't think there is any way that significantly restoring our pay will result in anyone being furloughed. I don't want anyone to be furloughed, including you. But for you to want the entire profession to be devalued by HALF its historical value... to avoid what you perceive as having the potential to cause you to get furloughed... is about as selfish as it gets.
And what opportunity for retirement did I already have? I am not now nor have I ever been in a position to be able to even think about retiring. Again, you just have no clue what you're talking about.
I've said it several times and I'll say it again. I don't think there is any way that significantly restoring our pay will result in anyone being furloughed. I don't want anyone to be furloughed, including you. But for you to want the entire profession to be devalued by HALF its historical value... to avoid what you perceive as having the potential to cause you to get furloughed... is about as selfish as it gets.
And what opportunity for retirement did I already have? I am not now nor have I ever been in a position to be able to even think about retiring. Again, you just have no clue what you're talking about.
Carl
12-09-2010, 03:58 PM
#3478
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
The fact that you would place blame on your fellow pilots for a furlough rather than the company who would actually send you the furlough notice, tells me that you are not in a good place for this discussion.
12-09-2010, 05:34 PM
#3479
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
12-09-2010, 05:38 PM
#3480
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
So who would you blame if a contract was ratified by 50.1% that gave a big pay raise but gave up 100 seat scope or relaxed work rules that alleviated the need for pilots?
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
I have sat at dinner with Captains that said they will sell 100 seat scope in a heart beat if it put more money in their pocket. They will strangle the company so it goes belly up they day after they retire.
I started this bomb throwing in response to a certain 74 captain who said junior guys should take one for the team and suck up the furlough. The "profession" will be better for it. Clearly I don't paint all senior guys with that brush, and if I gave that impression I'm sorry.
We all have one vote. We all vote our own self interests. Just don't tell me that mine don't matter and I should be altruistic for your benefit.
"Restoration" really sticks in my craw. The past is the past. You can't get it back. To pine away for it is counter productive and will only leave you bitter. What we get paid is a function of the market. Who knows, maybe the market will dictate higher than C2K rates. I doubt it but I am willing to trust the market.
Why is my repeated concern for job protection and security whining when some others repeated lamentations about pay rates not? Both are at the root about money. Money you you lost or money I may lose. Both are devastating to career earnings. You've been through it. Don't be surprised when I don't want to go through it.
Bottom line is I think I have just as much right to my job as Carl or DAL or anyone else here. When they say I should suck it up and gladly accept being unemployed for the good of the Profession, I'm going to fight back.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Lbell911
Regional
23
04-22-2012 11:33 AM
