Originally Posted by acl65pilot

DAL88,
You have misunderstood me. I have never touted a 5,5,5,5. Period. (COLA) I am of the group that knows the ATM is not giving out money. Never said otherwise. I am of the party that has said, "Restoration of Bust," may be foolhardy depending on where we are at the time we lay section three on the table.

We are not in the mood to give anything up.

I have said we cannot state an opener today, but the numbers I use as examples tend to be things that I see as realistic. Maybe a few points here or there, but generally where I see things to get a yes vote from this group. I cannot see anything passing that does not give a pay raise above 20% with major restoration of everything else I have been stating.

I have also further stated that where we start depends on UAL and AMR and where they are at that point in time.

Get an offer for an early opener or a contract extension, and we will weigh the pluses and minuses at that time. It truly depends on what we know at that given point in time. I do not think that the majority of this group would take an extension without major restoration. Same as it ever was.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

It can be. Like I pointed out earlier a 20-30% bump with 5,5,5,5 goes above C2K rates in the agreement. Step two would go well above that. If we opt for this route you would be here because the second bite could come as early as 2016.

It has nothing about seniority, it is about using "Time Valuation" for your money.

Originally Posted by Jabberwock

Can I go on record and state, I don't care about how we arrive at some version of C2K pay rates fifteen years later? We need to let go of the past boys. As Bruce Springsteen sang, "those jobs are goin' boys and they ain't coming back."

We are not going to restore our pay because we've outsourced a considerable amount of our bargaining leverage. We've already sold that flying and since we are not taking it back, we can't sell it again. When you count code share and Connection, we perform a minority of Delta flying. Like Lufthansia, SwissAir, and Air Canada, we don't have a monopoly on our company's labor any more. At some point our threat to strike will be met with giggles.

Might as well face it, without leverage, we will get some version of a reasonable raise increase, in line with the Company's performance and market conditions (including representational losers, like US Air's crappy rates). Taking any positions before seeing what United/CAL and American's contract looks like is premature.

What we can, and should, focus on right now is scope. We need to build consensus in support of unity (all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots). Our best negotiating position is indicating to the company that we think our jobs have value.

That's the plan that will give us the leverage to achieve C2K rates and more.

Originally Posted by scambo1

ACL;

If we are limiting our discussion to payrates:

I think T is the one who started talking about time value of money with respect to pay...so you are preaching to the choir.

When you say a 20-30% bump (very matter of factly), it is an expectations management tool, just to be clear. 5,5,5,5 is fine if it is 5,5,5,5,50 just to make sure the next negotiation is in good faith.

I Agree that an agreement sooner rather than later is in our (individual and collective) best interests, but how do we re-focus the pilot group from pro-active engagement to job action prepared if the company doesn't want to recognise our (extreme and too long) good faith?

I'm kinda out of good faith personally, but I'm tryin real hard to have Christmas spirit.

Originally Posted by DAL 88 Driver

Screwing over your employees is not a smart business strategy. And it will likely have a negative effect on "return for shareholders" in the long run. I guess it depends on whether you (not you, satchip... management) are in it for long term success, or just in it to make a quick buck and a name for yourself and then leave the company to struggle with your bad long term management decisions. While that might make a quarterly report or two look good, it is ultimately fiduciary irresponsibility in my view. Like I said, I see some things I like about our current management team. But when they sit back and let us continue under bankruptcy conditions long after the bankruptcy is over, they are missing a huge opportunity to really cultivate a great asset. The only way they are getting away with it right now is because we are letting them. I guess that's good for their bonuses and resumes, but it sucks for us pilots, and I can't for the life of me understand why DALPA would allow this to happen completely uncontested. That is by far the biggest reason I think a change may be needed in our representation.

Originally Posted by satchip

Dude, there ain't gonna be any "job action". At least the legal kind. There is no way that any government, left, right, center, donkey, or elephant is going to let the largest/2nd largest airline go on strike. I don't care how much Carl stomps is feet and calls us all spineless. BTW, BOB will get you fined too. Just ask the 49rs. ( I think I got that reference right.)

Originally Posted by satchip

Dude, there ain't gonna be any "job action". At least the legal kind. There is no way that any government, left, right, center, donkey, or elephant is going to let the largest/2nd largest airline go on strike. I don't care how much Carl stomps is feet and calls us all spineless. BTW, BOB will get you fined too. Just ask the 49rs. ( I think I got that reference right.)

Originally Posted by satchip

Call me whatever name you want, doesn't change the fact that no President is going to let us walk. Whether through the NMB or by his order the minute we vote to go, it's not going to happen. We need to think of other ways of getting what we want.

Originally Posted by satchip

Dude, there ain't gonna be any "job action". At least the legal kind. There is no way that any government, left, right, center, donkey, or elephant is going to let the largest/2nd largest airline go on strike. I don't care how much Carl stomps is feet and calls us all spineless. BTW, BOB will get you fined too. Just ask the 49rs. ( I think I got that reference right.)