satchip

My having a retirement has nothing to do with it. All it means is I can make the mortgage if the economy goes into the crapper. Without it I would adjust my standard of living to meet my income level, the same decision millions of American families make every day.

I think I am fairly compensated. Would I like more, you betcha' (a little norther lingo for our yankee brothers). There are, however, many more areas of the contract that I would like changed vs a huge pay raise. Scope, reserve system, scheduling, etc etc etc, are far more important to me. No amount of money can make up for a crappy QOL (ok, there is a number, but it is waaaay beyond what is possible. :-) )

And before Carl rails against me and says I am ruining the profession, remember, it's guys like him that sold this profession down the river for pay and now they got nutin'.

acl65pilot

I do agree that there are other areas that need to be improved. My disagreement came with the statement that pay is fine right where it is at. I too of course would love a huge raise, but I do agree with the premise that places like 1, 12, 23, 6th week of vacation for senior guys, more 415 money (18-20%), sick bank improvements, disability improvements for pilots who contract Malaria while working, and others, need to be taken care of as well. Many items like a min day not a DPA(duty period average) will help pay out tremendously. It makes sense to fix the work rules and other areas of the PWA. I would not want to get a huge raise and see no fixes other area of this agreement.

Like I have posted here, there is a lot of genius in doing this in two steps. One to get a moderate raise, and huge improvements in work rules, et al, and then go for the second part in three to four years. Many on here do not want to entertain that. That is their right.

Bucking Bar

Carl,

I'd answer that question, but, then you would claim to be an expert on C2K negotiations and go back to stating junior pilots are idiots.

ie: CA: WHAT's TWO PLUS TWO ?!!!
FO: Four, Sir
CA: YOU'RE AN IDIOT
FO:
CA: I FORGOT, WHAT's ONE PLUS ONE, G'D' IT!?I
FO: ... digs ear buds out of pocket for his iPod ... turns up tunes ... changes bid preferences from computer at an outstation.

DAL 88 Driver

I would have them make a good faith effort to make things right. I don't expect them to voluntarily restore C2K. But it would be appropriate in my opinion for them to come to us and offer to partially restore our pay. It was taken from us (okay we gave it up with a proverbial gun to our heads) in BK as an emergency measure to supposedly save the company from liquidating. It's absolutely wrong that we continue to have the same buying power several years after exiting BK and especially during a time when the company is making record profits. I've already posted enough about the management and leadership qualities that most experts advocate. And hopefully you saw the Tom Peters video using SWA and AA pilots an example to illustrate a very important concept. I guess the thing to ask is WWHD? (What Would Herb Do?)

As for your comment about pay being "fine." Well, in my experience, you sir are on the radical, lunatic, fringe with that opinion. Many of us are counting on this career. We've put years of hard work and sacrifice into this and don't have anything else to fall back on. The level of compensation at this point in time is nowhere near appropriate, given what we do and what we had to do to achieve success and reach this level. I just cannot believe you do not understand that, but you're entitled to your opinion. Just don't expect to find many people who agree with you.

tsquare

Funny how it takes a kick in the onions to get them to pay attention...

vprMatrix

Not really getting into C2Ks intricacies but since you are fond of quoting NW peak rate of $280 which included overrides I will mention that C2K did have an $8 international and $15 night override for CAs.

This makes Delta's top pay rate $332/hr not $319. The top FO rate possible was $234.

satchip

OK, bold section #1. At the risk of sounding smart allecky again, are you delusional? We are making record profits because our costs are finally low enough as compared to our revenues. What do you think the shareholders, the owners of the company, would do if RA came and did what you say they should. Remember who majority shareholders are. Big investment banks who want a ROI. They would revolt.

Bold section #2. You are making a fundamental mistake of economics here. Buying power doesn't equate with pay rates. If you don't like your pay rate, you can blame DALPA and Delta if you want. If you don't like your buying power, blame the FED or the ________ (party of your choice, you know what my choice is).

Bold section #3. Our level of compensation has nothing to do with what we do, it's importance, nor how long it took to get us here. It is based solely on market forces. You can argue that importance, length of training, etc are things that shape the market. I'll agree with you there. But what other pilots are paid and how many there are of us is the major factor.

As for me being the lunatic fringe, not the first time I've been accused of that. What I was trying to convene is pay is not number one on my list of wants for C2-12. I can live with what I make now and some yearly bumps like we have. I'll take more, no doubt about it. It's just not my priority. With a finite pot, and it is, I'd rather have the other improvements.

iceman49

Sat, I think having a fixed retirement does factor into your thought process...with no disrespect intended. The health care alone is worth 2-6 hundred dollars a month in premiums that we currently pay, not even counting how expensive the retired guys health care is. I disagree the hourly wage and the work rules need to be changed and for the better. I hear the QOL mantra, but I think it is more of the issue if someone says it enough times, that such and such is the best in the industry does not make it so. Its a no brainer to hire the mil guys, best training, and if they are retired they probably won't be complaining loudly about health care, retirement etc...mil guys are a win for the company with no down side.

tsquare

The problem is that 3 or 4 years is not 3 or 4 years. I have 15 left (to 65). I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts that the second bite wouldn't take effect until I am on the way out. And even if it did, it wouldn't be significant enough to make the wait worthwhile. Like Carl said, your perspective is that of a newbie... Your pension loss was zilch. telling double deadzoners to be patient and to wait is hardly going to be met with zeal. We are going on year 10? of our bankruptcy contract. When is the payoff?

newKnow

Satchip,

I agree that scope is a huge issue. That's why I say we should be going after what United pilots are going after. But, the pay is NOT fine. Not for me at least.

My peak rate at NWA was $168.00 per hour in 2001, under a contract that you say never reached the C2K level that Delta pilots got to. Today, I do the same job for a little over $150.00 per hour.

I know you don't like looking to the past. But, I wonder if you understand how much we have lost.

For Alpha: Emotional, historical argument over.